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Behringer Mini model D? A good idea?
Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #121
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone ➡️
I say the DM12 was a brilliant product by them, and wish them nothing but success in hopefully creating original innovative designs that bridge the gap between prosumer and elite level gear, but I hope they have some respect for Moog and appreciate who they are, and what they stand for, and not do a straight Minimoog clone...that's just my personal opinion.

It's too easy to exploit, and it's somewhat hallowed ground.
AMEN.

Uli, please use your self described disruption powers with care. Focus on disrupting synthesizer tech--not other companies. If you need any guidance, look to what Dave Smith did with the Prophet 5, Midi, & his collaborative ethos.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #122
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🎧 10 years
<deleted by moderator - use another word please>move. clone something dead...elektor formant, crumar spirit, synton syrinx, arp 2600, hartmann neuron. there are many.
or better yet, make something new and innovative.

Last edited by Reptil; 6th March 2017 at 07:15 PM.. Reason: --
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Old 5th March 2017
  #123
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keyz2401's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
My only, only issue here is capitalizing on the Moog name. Not only is it in bad taste, but it sets up a whole bunch of expectations on build quality, sound, design, materials, and support. Instead of invoking the Moog name, and moreover a specific model, why not just bill it as "a modern synth inspired by a great classic". That would give a lot more leeway everything mentioned above. Maybe this is a "PT Barnum"-ish publicity stunt? IDK - but it seems a little tacky.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #124
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by unwar ➡️
<deleted by moderator - use another word please> move. clone something dead...elektor formant, crumar spirit, synton syrinx, arp 2600, hartmann neuron. there are many.
or better yet, make something new and innovative.
they will all come in time, I don't think most have grasped what Behringer are going to do. They are going to be making all sorts of recreations over the next 20 years that will blow you all away, these are just the first few steps..

Last edited by Reptil; 6th March 2017 at 07:16 PM.. Reason: --
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #125
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyz2401 ➡️
My only, only issue here is capitalizing on the Moog name. Not only is it in bad taste, but it sets up a whole bunch of expectations on build quality, sound, design, materials, and support. Instead of invoking the Moog name, and moreover a specific model, why not just bill it as "a modern synth inspired by a great classic". That would give a lot more leeway everything mentioned above. Maybe this is a "PT Barnum"-ish publicity stunt? IDK - but it seems a little tacky.
Even Barnum (and Bailey) had to put away the elephants.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #126
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daviddever's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz ➡️
they will all in come in time, I don't most of have grasped what Behringer are going to do. They are going to be making all sorts of recreations over the next 20 years that will blow you all away, these are just the first few steps..
...kind of the synthesizer equivalent of Jurassic Park, with broken strands of DNA and no conception of how the resulting organisms should evolve, lacking context of their origins....

We have whole trailer parks over here in the U.S. that are object lessons as to what happens when the gene pool folds in upon itself due to lack of biogenetic diversity–and it sure ain't pretty. The same, to a large extent, applies to the world of electronics.

If, on the other hand, one starts with something fresh, there's no mistaking it for another genus or species.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #127
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever ➡️
Even Barnum (and Bailey) had to put away the elephants.
I have no idea what that means.
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Old 5th March 2017
  #128
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zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
No need. Let's hit developers that have abandoned analog... lists see a CS80 inspired synth.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #129
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever ➡️
...kind of the synthesizer equivalent of Jurassic Park, with broken strands of DNA and no conception of how the resulting organisms should evolve, lacking context of their origins....

We have whole trailer parks over here in the U.S. that are object lessons as to what happens when the gene pool folds in upon itself due to lack of biogenetic diversity–and it sure ain't pretty. The same, to a large extent, applies to the world of electronics.

If, on the other hand, one starts with something fresh, there's no mistaking it for another genus or species.
and all the other synth manufactures who also cloned past synths..? for some reason y'all keep leaving out this important aspect..?
Old 5th March 2017
  #130
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How many didn't say a word about this piece of gear and it's striking resemblance to the original..?
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #131
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drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Why start with Minimoog there are TONS of monosynths (and cheap ones) out there?!!!

Clone unobtanium synths:

Jupiter 8

Yamaha CS series

Arp 2600

That is all.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unwar ➡️
<deleted by moderator - use another word please> move. clone something dead...elektor formant, crumar spirit, , , hartmann neuron. there are many.
or better yet, make something new and innovative.
this is only the beginning I bet
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Old 5th March 2017
  #133
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WozNYC's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
This entire thread bugs me.

Uli makes a seemingly off-the-cuff comment about Minimoog parts only costing $200, then someone (who is not Uli) asks "Who wants a Behringer Minimoog clone for under $500?"

It all seems very calculated and scummy and reminds me of the "old" Behringer.

I buy instruments that are a pleasure to play, built well and will hopefully outlive me. This just sounds like it would be crap. And I don't believe it would ever sound like a real Minimoog.

I don't even want to discuss it. If the idea floats your boat, awesome. Not for me.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #134
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zerocrossing's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever ➡️
...kind of the synthesizer equivalent of Jurassic Park, with broken strands of DNA and no conception of how the resulting organisms should evolve, lacking context of their origins....

We have whole trailer parks over here in the U.S. that are object lessons as to what happens when the gene pool folds in upon itself due to lack of biogenetic diversity–and it sure ain't pretty. The same, to a large extent, applies to the world of electronics.

If, on the other hand, one starts with something fresh, there's no mistaking it for another genus or species.
Settle down Bevis.

A synth isn't an inbred hillbilly. If the culture supports the recreation of old classics, even if they're all gussied up like a toddler beauty pageant contestant, like the DM12, then they automatically belong. I don't see anyone criticizing pianos, even though the basic design is hundreds of years old. You don't have to evolve if you're well adapted to your environment.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever ➡️
It seems you have a mistaken impression that I work for Moog Music - that is not the case, even though I do have an consumer / pro audio engineering background.

As for bent component leads implying the subsequent use of an auto-insertion machine, that's not entirely a foregone conclusion, as you well know–but it does certainly imply the use of a lead-bending and trimming ("cropping") unit, which makes insertion by hand quite efficient, and has been around for decades.

Finally - surely you are aware that lead solder is in fact still permitted in the European Union for new manufacturing use within specific industries where reliability in the service of public safety necessitates an exclusion to manufacturers such as EADS, correct?

In the United States, all of this is a non-issue: it is permissible, in fact, to sell products in California which have been made in another state (or Mexico!) using lead-alloyed solder; it is also possible to repair products which were manufactured using leaded solder with same-type solder (as is also the case in both the UK and EU).

The world of leaded solder did not end on July 1st, 2006, of course–there's an entire history of audio products that predates this–but if you're designing new products, chances are that you'd design them using RoHS-favorable components. Apparently, this is also an item that may be subject to change in the UK, post-Brexit.

Lastly–you are aware that organ pipe alloys are subject to an Article 5 exclusion as well (as of 2012), right?
David,

great little spar;-)

Someone had earlier posted images of PCBA's.

https://gearspace.com/board/12479100-post56.html

How would you explain that all axial components are bent in consistent directions and cut with the same length, while non-axial components such transistors leads are not bent at all. Also manually adjusting all color-coded resistors in the same direction is quite an achievement;-)

Look no one would really care as auto-insertion is certainly a more reliable and efficient process. But that doesn't make it an all hand-assembled product.

I am sure you are aware that your listed ROHS exemptions don't really apply to and are not in the spirit of our consumer electronic industry unless you consider synthesizers part of the EADS (European Aeronautic Defence And Space) industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restri...nces_Directive
WHO | Lead poisoning and health

But putting the law and directives aside, why would you use leaded solder when there are less toxic solutions available?

Uli
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Old 5th March 2017
  #136
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Build decent products people will buy them...regardless of the fun stuff on message boards.

I like sub $500 because they can be impulse buys. But there should be more deepmind stuff, and above!

I dont think Behri will do anything 1:1, but they should keep everything similar...keep costs down by using the same parts across the board, have fx, screens, apps...I like all of that. Gives the brand an identity. Id go more utilitarian...I used to love Nad hifi gear

If it doesnt float people's boats or they can never get over them producing cheap knock offs to begin with, I get that too...theres plenty more synths out there, many more higher quality, many cheaper and lesser quality. Something for everyone.

I opened the sweetwater catalogue the other day and thought feck me we were calling it a golden age for synths two or three years ago, look at it now!
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #137
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcearl ➡️
Build decent products people will buy them...regardless of the fun stuff on message boards.

I like sub $500 because they can be impulse buys. But there should be more deepmind stuff, and above!
this %110 of the time...a few angry posts on a forum doesn't translate to world wide angst. Most people who are normal don't even post they might read or lurk or get redirected here via Google searches, it's only a very tiny minority of potential buyers who get on here and bicker it out..
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #138
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz ➡️
How many didn't say a word about this piece of gear and it's striking resemblance to the original..?
Roland weren't remaking it at the time, Moog are.

Is a total dick move to clone the MiniMoog just when Moog have released theirs, but that wouldn't surprise me.

There are plenty of other synths you could copy.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #139
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia ➡️
Roland weren't remaking it at the time, Moog are.

Is a total dick move to clone the MiniMoog just when Moog have released theirs, but that wouldn't surprise me.

There are plenty of other synths you could copy.
I'm sure when the cost is released you will agree it will have ZERO impact on anything Moog related or those buying anything Moog. They have their dedicated followers and that's that, in fact all this does it shine a light on the Moog brand and gives them unlimited free publicity, that's a kind of publicity you cannot buy.. people are really brand loyal when they find ones they like, they won't lower themselves to buy a cheaper version, the rest of us can do as we please..
Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #140
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia ➡️
Roland weren't remaking it at the time, Moog are.

Is a total dick move to clone the MiniMoog just when Moog have released theirs, but that wouldn't surprise me.

There are plenty of other synths you could copy.
oh and the Crowminius is being made now too and so is the Moog version..boutique or not it's fact. We don't know if the Behringer one will even look anything like a Moog, it could look like something else totally..

*edit and Roland were making 303 clones at the time and still are.
Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #142
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer ➡️
David,

great little spar;-)

Someone had earlier posted images of PCBA's.

https://gearspace.com/board/12479100-post56.html

How would you explain that all axial components are bent in consistent directions and cut with the same length, while non-axial components such transistors leads are not bent at all. Also manually adjusting all color-coded resistors in the same direction is quite an achievement;-)

Look no one would really care as auto-insertion is certainly a more reliable and efficient process. But that doesn't make it an all hand-assembled product.

I am sure you are aware that your listed ROHS exemptions don't really apply to and are not in the spirit of our consumer electronic industry unless you consider synthesizers part of the EADS (European Aeronautic Defence And Space) industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restri...nces_Directive
WHO | Lead poisoning and health

But putting the law and directives aside, why would you use leaded solder when there are less toxic solutions available?

Uli
Alignment of color-coded resistors in the same direction would hardly be a conspiracy–it was taught to me that way, as it makes it easier when checking your own, hand-built work!

But it might also be worth asking whether auto-insertion was part of the Norlin production processes back in the 1970s–and I might guess that it was, as it was also the case for Gibson–so "handcrafted" might still be as equally appropriate (or not) now as it was then.

As for Pb–where leaded solder is original specification at point of manufacture (largely applicable for nearly everything built prior to July 2006, and still the case in many parts of the world), it IS the appropriate choice, full stop, with the usual counter measures taken to mitigate employee exposure. Mixing of solder types is to be avoided in older products, for reasons of contamination (in both directions), and it is IMHO sensible that Moog, for example, physically segregates its leaded repair and rework from the rest of (RoHS-compliant) production.

For new PCB designs, lead-free sourcing / PCB layout / manufacturing is the way to go–which I believe we can agree upon. There's well over ten years' worth of expertise, which should be sufficient.
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Old 5th March 2017
  #143
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"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead" - Stan Laurel
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #144
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🎧 10 years
I'm OK with the idea of this product in principle, and this is coming from someone who already owns a vintage Model D, a Voyager, and a Model D re-issue, but I think that Behringer would have to be extremely careful in how they brand and market such a product. It's already proving to be quite a controversial idea, as this thread has demonstrated, and I think that they should be careful to not give the impression of trying to undercut Moog's sales.

As stated previously, there have already been Moog clones out there, such as Studio Electronics' various products, so maybe Behringer can release a 3 VCO monosynth with a filter sporting a "classic" topology, coupled with a few winks and nudges. I think that they did a good job in regards to the DeepMind12 not being too overtly a clone of a Juno106, so if they keep going on that path they could have another winning product.
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Old 5th March 2017
  #145
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🎧 10 years
I will buy one and pick it up in my miniature 911 convertible as newly engineered by Kia

Honestly I wish they would work on bringing back a JP-8 style synth especially since Roland seems to have no plans to.

I don't see any harm in bringing out great new synths that deliver good quality.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva ➡️
I will buy one and pick it up in my miniature 911 convertible as newly engineered by Kia

Honestly I wish they would work on bringing back a JP-8 style synth especially since Roland seems to have no plans to.

I don't see any harm in bringing out great new synths that deliver good quality.
My mates GTR still gets called a Datsun by some
Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #147
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🎧 10 years
Forget the 'clone'. Why bother making a cheaper version of an available product other than to make fast gain while espousing a dubious desire to bring high end items to the greater unwashed.
If that is indeed the primary motivation then why not deliver the one thing moog lovers have been screaming for, an affordable polyphonic moog.
Not a 'clone' but a poly based on the basic moog architecture. no clash, no foul. and it still leaves moog the pleasure of delivering the highend poly that many are awaiting.
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #148
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone ➡️

In the least I applaud this community, where many individuals have expressed what really is right and fair, and proudly espoused those principles, over what may indeed be what our world is turning into.

I always thought that's what made art special, that it allowed an alternative view into how the world operates. But in the end, sadly it's an illusion.

...sadly, $'s are the only things thing drives this world. It's f+cking sad...
You're funny. Is this a site about gear or what? I mean you are really all about your morality and your feelings today.

Here's what I believe. The Beringer people seem to be very legit when it comes to IP. People have been making these accusations for years, but I don't think that they have ever lost a case related to infringement. At least, I'm not aware of one. Yet, you carelessly use words like ripping-off and copying without any facts. I don't think that's "right" or "fair" I think it's slander.

Now can someone tell me when the B Mini model D will be available?
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Old 5th March 2017
  #149
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🎧 5 years
How can so many folks have so many negative feelings about a synth some company is planning to build? I'd buy s Behringer mono if it sounds fine. No probs. Relax. There are real problems in the world. Not least on your side of the pond...
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Old 5th March 2017 | Show parent
  #150
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone ➡️
Well, 'you can graphite a horse to water' wouldn't have the same pun equivalence...but what might be more apt, pertaining to this thread is:

'You can lead a horse to water, and you can make it drink'

meaning, it's pretty easy for the masses to accept the Kool-Aid. Which underscores the sad dog eat dog state of affairs that pretty much is the de facto reality.

In the least I applaud this community, where many individuals have expressed what really is right and fair, and proudly espoused those principles, over what may indeed be what our world is turning into.

I always thought that's what made art special, that it allowed an alternative view into how the world operates. But in the end, sadly it's an illusion.

One of the most poignant things I've seen in film was, when in a documentary, Sonny Rollins had a sad epiphany, in that he realized that his art couldn't change the world for the better, no matter how hard he tried or wanted for it to be so...but, as artists, as better people, we still dream...sadly, $'s are the only things thing drives this world. It's f+cking sad...
pure drivel...nothing to do with the topic at all..

these are tools, not art it's self..
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