Also, if I buy a MiniMoog model D, I'm also doing it because it comes in a beautiful cabinet with great feeling materials (knobs, switches, etc.) as well as being built here on American soil.

It's already been demonstrated that the sound and timbre of the model D can be replicated.

And the minimoog has based on this from CANADA!


Not 1: 1 obviously, what I am saying if much technology
crossed south to New York State to help Dr. Moog!

HughLeCaine.com - Electronic Sackbut (1945-1973)

Also, Don Buchla was simultaneously/independently doing his thing on the other coast while Moog was doing his thing.

...by Moog Music themselves, and very accurately, some 30-40 years after the fact.

One can walk in the door to Moog Music in Asheville, wander through the company store (which has other manufacturers' products as well), take a company tour, and actually see folks building the stuff (against work orders for Sweetwater, Guitar Center, et al, on the blackboard*)–in one building.

* "Mother 2" = BFAM (Brother From Another Mother) pre-production for MoogFest electronics workshop, I would imagine–or it could be RoHS-compliant Mother-32s for export markets....

That is not an experience, nor an ethos, that can be equalled by Music Group in the same manner, sorry. That ship has sailed.

I have no doubt that Music Group can deliver well-engineered products, but the affections for it will never be the same (as for an employee-held manufacturing entity).

+1

I don't thinkt's unethical to clone a Model D. It's been done many times and it didn't hurt Moog. How about Studio Electronics who just reissued their clone again as the Boomstar? Even Dave Smith admitted that he wanted to do a six voice version of the Model D and came up with the Prophet 5.

Nevertheless a 1:1 copy is obviously not the best way to do it. I would just take the best things about the D and add lots of other good things.

I think they should just copy the VCOs and the VCF and build around that. Oh and probably the glide function, too. I don't know why, but I feel the Minimoog's glide is the most natural and best sounding I know.

If you aks me, dear Uli, I would throw in another VCF or maybe even two more VCFs, like in the Synton Syrinx. Three envelopes wouldn't hurt either
That would be pretty unique and still affordable and the sonic pssibilities would be tremendous (Trump voice).

I dont take issue with doing classic remakes...but does seem a bit distasteful to do one so shortly after moog releases their own. Think its a little different situation when the product is out of production for a couple decades.

Instead of waiting for the rack version we'll all just be waiting for the cheaper behringer copy.

And whos fault is that ?
This is how it is - if you make your potential customers wait too long, some competitor will put out a product and take the customers from you.

if behringer did a straight up clone theyd get tons of hate on here from the moog fan boys and the critics wouldnt compare both products on there own merits theyd automatically say its not as good even if it was they wouldnt say it was.
i still think after meeting the nice people at midas they have the talent to create a product which people 20 years from now would hold dear to there hearts as people do today concerning the minimoog.
theyve shown they can create a brilliant product with the deepmind12 too me that was just a taster of what they can do if midas were pushed the next product would be a thing people in 20 years time would be asking companys to clone

I bought an original Minimoog in 1974. They had a retail price around $2000 then. That is $9850 today adjusted for inflation. How are they shafting the customer?

No.

Im not so sure that moog fans would really be interested in a sub $500 moog copy. And I dont think it would be only them saying that the copy didnt sound as good...plenty of non moog fans in here like to have a dig at Behringer, regardless of what they release...I dont think they'll ever have them on board.


Id not like to see a 1:1 copy...if the DM was a 106 on steroids, Id like the BOOG to be a minmoog on heroin...or at least onboard fx, screen, editor etc

totally agree with you uli..i own a toyota yaris i bought it with the government scrapage allowance years ago for £7000 brand new and its never had any problems (touch wood) my brother bought a top of the range mercades it cost him over £50000 with all the extras and it broke down totally 3 times (engine managmenent system failure)and had to be recalled all in the space of 6 months plus it had other issues too many to list on here.
people think just because a things expensive it must be better that used to be true many years ago but thats a thing of the pass now.

i had a minimoog many many years ago and it was a nightmare it took over a hour too warm up and could only be used for a shortwhile because it kept detuning so i had to record it as quick as i could then stop retune then start again ..it was very frustrating and in the end i got rid :(
i bought it at the time because it had this great myth that it is the best synth ever made now i dont believe that i do think it was one of the best designed and easy to use synths but i dont think its the best synth ever.

its also true that concerning brands like moog/dsi your paying a premium for the badge not the components.uli is right if you bought the same components in the numbers uli could get them for the price would be $200 or probably less.itd sound the same look the same and be sold in the shops for a 10th of the price moog sells them for but for many gearslutz on here youd still hate it just like you did with the dm12 some of you hated that without even hearing it or seeing it in reallife... :(

its also true that some of the greatest songs ever made were created on the cheapest synths you dont need to own a £5000 moog synth to have a hit record.ive met people with synth collections which cost more than my house but they couldnt write a tune if there lifes depended on it and ive met people whove written superb tracks with a beat up ms20 and a drum maschine thats it.
talent comes from within not just because you can buy the most expensive gear.

you cant really compare prices from then to now because components are much cheaper and reliable now and production and design has changed alot so has demand.

Strip the Moog badge (and the accompanying legend status) off the synth and you will have a simple 3 VCO mono synth for 3500$.
If that doesn't ring any alarm bells... Well... Hehe.

For a comparison a similarly nicely built and far more capable Matrixbrute is 2000$, but without the legend status.
And listen here how it does the classic Moog bass:
https://youtu.be/L9GfK-FOPIg?t=156

Yes.

Don't worry, they'll keep repeating the convenient lie. I've taken the Moog factory tour as well, but he heard something on the internet which validates his ignorant, unshakable opinions.

You could call it the Module-D.

If it's going in the EuroCrack direction, then it should maybe have a form factor similar to the Roland System-1m - a module that could fit in Euro, sit on the desktop, or be rack mounted but with an optional keyboard dock so that nobody feels forced to source a Euro enclosure and open up that can of worms when all they want is a Model D clone at the lowest possible price. Those that already have a Euro enclosure could save a few bucks by not buying the keyboard dock (even though it would take up a whole row of a Euro enclosure which is probably more expensive than a keyboard dock from Behringer would be), and those who don't need another keyboard could just slot it into their rack or sit it on the desktop. However I suspect that even users who already have a Euro setup would rather just rack the Module-D instead of using up a whole row of Euro enclosure anyway - that's what I'd probably do unless I was trying to build a very compact live rig or something. In terms of modular patch capability (if it even makes sense to go down that route), a simple row of the most useful patch points across the top or bottom of the unit should suffice, similar to what Tom Oberheim has done with his SEM-Pro reissue modules. If you add preset storage and recall, and MIDI CC control over parameters, you'll be offering features that no Model-D or clone can offer.

The keyboard dock could be very basic - it doesn't need to be a full EuroRack rails and power supply setup, just a keyboard+wheels controller that derives its power and MIDI i/o via a single ribbon cable to the Module-D, similar to the Roland Boutique keyboard dock, meaning it would only work with the Module-D. I think it would be a mistake to make it extremely tiny like the Boutique series, but a three-space 19" module would have enough room for fairly chunky knobs with decent ergonomic spacing, and would allow for rack mounting, Euro mounting, or a decent sized keyboard dock with full-size keys and wheels.

There are already a few units that go in this direction, like the excellent Waldorf KB-37 and the AJH MiniMod series of modules which let you build a fully modular Model D clone - but these items are not anywhere near the low price point that Behringer could achieve. The Waldorf enclosure lists for around $1,000 and to duplicate a Model D with AJH modules lists for around $2,100 - so you're already near the price of a real Moog Model-D reissue, although of course in this case you'd have full patch-ability.

I think the price point would need to be $999 or less for the combination of a patchable, MIDI CC controllable, preset-store-able Module-D and a Keyboard-D - but if the price can be driven down towards $499 by eliminating patch points, store/recall, MIDI CC control, and dock-ability then you'll still move truckloads of them. This would put it in the same category as the Korg MS-20 and Arp Odyssey reissues, but at an even lower price point. In my opinion, a bare-bones, fully-manual Model D clone with keyboard at $499 is a no-brainer purchase and would have broad appeal, but higher-end users might not see the attraction - however a CC-controllable, patchable, dockable Module-D + Keyboard-D combo, with store and recall at $999 would tempt even the most jaded of users.

If it sounded good, of course....

With all this said, I do own a Moog Model-D reissue, and have owned four originals over the last 30 years (along with countless original Arp, Korg, Oberheim, and Sequential Circuits synths) - and the reissue is my favorite Model-D that I've ever owned. The sound and build quality are beyond reproach, beyond compare, and worth every penny - but I admit that its price point places it out of reach of a wide swath of potential customers.

Aside from MFB, are there many other 3 VCO monosynths out there? I like the Matrixbrute, but I think all of us are waiting to see what the long game is on these, given the track record of Arturia.

Seeing as MiniMoogs have (mostly) lasted at least 40 years says a lot.

Make it like a desktop version, don't bother with keys at all, everyone wants to chime in with keys jokes if you do, so leave them off and save us all that carry on. Desktop version with tilted to user angle up perspective, little wooden end cheeks and good clear color scheme with clear easy to read labels and fonts, make the knobs nice and classy like the original even..the sound..make sure it can overdrive the filter, that was what the Mini Moog was special for, don't leave that part out whatever you do..

sold..!!

and again you'll dance around an answer, what about all the others who have made copies or clones of these instruments and used the same technology..why are you excluding them..?

Did they all blatantly < moderator edit: legal territory here >, many many others, too long to list, on and on and on and on? I think there's somewhat of a difference there...

I say the DM12 was a brilliant product by them, and wish them nothing but success in hopefully creating original innovative designs that bridge the gap between prosumer and elite level gear, but I hope they have some respect for Moog and appreciate who they are, and what they stand for, and not do a straight Minimoog clone...that's just my personal opinion.

It's too easy to exploit, and it's somewhat hallowed ground.

The two most reliable cars I've ever owned were a Toyota Camry and Toyota hilux 4x4 UTE/cabin. The story of Toyota is a fascinating one, I was once told when they first started making cars after they went to America and bought up all the old car making plant tools/machines that GM were getting rid of in a plant upgrade for next to nothing, shipped them back to Japan and started their car making business that way.

As for reliability I'm a huge proponent of seeking out things in life with long shelf life's, reliability is a number 1 motive when buying most things.

I simply can't tolerate failure and waste, so reliability is a huge factor for me personally. Recently I had been saving and saving and sold off gear I could have kept, just to be able to afford a Verbos harmonic oscillator for my euro rack system, it came in at close $900, very very expensive for me but I was determined to get one as I liked what I heard.

But going into buying this I had read about and heard a lot of problems with build and quality control in general with Verbos products but for whatever reason I blanked it out of my mind, I was blinded by the want for that module, when it arrived I was so stoked, I took it out of the box and two of the knobs fell off onto the floor. I Put them back on and tried to fix it myself but couldn't, they were defective and the little grub screws inside had been damaged, there are loads of quality control issues with their gear and you pay a premium and they are small builders.. I have since bought a Verbos Tone controller and it sounds incredible, best VCA I've ever heard, but probably won't ever risk buying any more Verbos gear.

That's why I said the Kia isn't necessarily less well made than the BMW

I'd have no issue buying a Behringer synth based on quality. In fact, I own or have owned several pedals and a mixer and the only issue I've ever had was a 2nd hand bcr2000 dying on me.

I would buy based on whether I'd be interested in the product, which I wouldn't likely be if said product was a full on clone kinda thing - unless it was really special.

and you will still have a Minimoog.

Hi David,

I greatly respect the pride you have for your company as you guys make fine products.

Equally, I am very proud of our employees and the customers who have been loyal to us for all these years. Perhaps our Music Tribe Facebook page can convey some of the affection you describe.
I also invite everyone to drop by at our offices in Los Angeles, Las Vegas or any other location as we have an open door policy and love to talk to our customers.

I have noticed that the majority of the components used in the MiniMoog PCB's show bent leads which is usually a sign of an auto-insertion machine process for axial components. Would you care to comment?

What puzzles me a bit is your earlier comment about your "non-ROHS compliant and leaded soldering process".

Lead is a highly toxic and hazardous chemical which has been banned by law in most European countries and also in California.

Restrictions on the use of Certain Hazardous Substances (RoHS) in Electronic Devices

For that particular reason, we have changed all our soldering processes to a complete lead-free process more than a decade ago.

Uli

I've got no problem with Behringer making Model D inspired Euro modules. It can easily become it's own thing at that point and not just an unimaginatitive clone. Making unfactual claims about component cost and construction of the reissue is poor form.

Why not clone something that hasn't been reissued? Like the Korg PS series for example. That would be doing something impressive especially if they could pull it off for under 2k.

@ uli
Please give us the Arp 2600 and Jupiter 4. All analog, VCO Synths.
Do the Deep Mind 12 treatment to them. So lots of modulation. But with a sequencer like the Pro 2. Multiple layers of p locking goodness.

Please!

Makes no sence. One dsp would generate 3 vary waveform lfos at audio rate with no problem.

It seems you have a mistaken impression that I work for Moog Music - that is not the case, even though I do have an consumer / pro audio engineering background.

As for bent component leads implying the subsequent use of an auto-insertion machine, that's not entirely a foregone conclusion, as you well know–but it does certainly imply the use of a lead-bending and trimming ("cropping") unit, which makes insertion by hand quite efficient, and has been around for decades:



Finally - surely you are aware that lead solder is in fact still permitted in the European Union for new manufacturing use within specific industries where reliability in the service of public safety necessitates an exclusion to manufacturers such as EADS, correct?

In the United States, all of this is a non-issue: it is permissible, in fact, to sell products in California which have been made in another state (or Mexico!) using lead-alloyed solder; it is also possible to repair products which were manufactured using leaded solder with same-type solder (as is also the case in both the UK and EU).

The world of leaded solder did not end on July 1st, 2006, of course–there's an entire history of audio products that predates this–but if you're designing new products, chances are that you'd design them using RoHS-favorable components. Apparently, this is also an item that may be subject to change in the UK, post-Brexit.

Lastly–you are aware that organ pipe alloys are subject to an Article 5 exclusion as well (as of 2012), right?