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Behringer Mini model D? A good idea?
Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1051
Deleted 60622ed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oche ecaps ➡️
The subject is "Behringer Mini model D? A good idea?" My answer is that no, it's not a good idea. It's not a cool thing to do and it makes Behringer look like petty competitive jerks and reinforces the idea that Behringer just makes cheap knockoffs and can't innovate on their own. Which is too bad given that they seemed to be moving in the opposite direction recently.



You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. This has nothing to do with ethics, morality, or legal IP issues. I'm just talking about common courtesy.
You know maybe I do have a problem with reading comprehention, but I seem to follow others posts pretty well, yours not so much

You just seem pretty angry because behringer lacks "style" and "courtesy"??

No need to answer, Ive probably picked that up wrong too. I really dont care about courtesy or style, that would be at the bottom of a very small list of why I shouldnt buy this product.

Yet Im quite stylish in a Highland Dandy kinda way

Edit: if I insulted you in anyway oche ecaps, please accept my apology
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Old 10th March 2017
  #1052
Deleted 60622ed
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Synth Guru...can you warn me when Im about to get a post deleted for insulting someone...so I can actually insult them?
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1053
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 330128 ➡️
Bug free?

LFO repeat ADSR = broken
Gate in ADSR = broken
Square wave not a true square wave = broken
CV in does not equal what comes out of CV out = broken
Modulation does not transmit via CV = broken

Despite that it sounds cool, has 3 filter modes and is fun to tweak while feeding MIDI. Hence why the desktop is THE steal just for having MIDI pitch bend.
Bug free by comparison. To my knowledge there's still a or a couple bugs still present with the desktop module not seen in the slim/FS keys. I also read somewhere that bugs in the the initial slimkeys release were somewhat resolved? For instanced mine does not have that LFO repeat issue, works fine but mine is a newer release.
I would like to test to see if it puts out a true square wave (tweaked by a pot on the main board perhaps?). I've not messed with the CV btw. The MIDI pitch bend would be welcomed but I play it like the original with the PPC's. Those alone are worth the price of admission for copping the original's tone. IDK $400 for a little blast from the past to throw up on top of your Rhodes, organ, stage piano or other synths live? That's a steal. But if you're working out of a home or project studio I could totally see where the space could be an issue and the module would be an advantage, but again the slimkeys is only 4" longer so... Horses for courses

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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1054
Lives for gear
 
DrJustice's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggingForRoots ➡️
So lets say for arguments sake that the parts alone cost 400-500 to make a moog model d. They take 1-3 hours to make. Lets say at $30 dollars and hour to pay the tech who manufactures it that's at most another $90. So that brings us to $590 to manufacture a mini moog. So that's a $2900 markup. Yes of course there are marketing, warehousing, and facilities cost that go into the product but at the end of the day moog got greedy and left themselves open for someone to slid in and take a bigger market share.
Although I'm not privy to the details (and neither are you), I reckon the Model D reissue costs far more than $590 to manufacture (and there are non manufacturing related costs). There's a few through hole PCBs, a chassis with quite a few metal and wood parts, high quality switchgear, keybed, performance controllers and so on. Much of this is made in tiny quantities to the exact specs of the original. The assembly and calibration process is done by hand in very small batches.

They've gone to lengths to make a "museum quality" recreation of an iconic instrument and a cultural object. It's a very different prospect than making a mass manufactured Chinese built SMT clone with only a voice card and knobs in a simple chassis.

As for "greed", I hardly think Moog is greedy - they're a small company with limited production, upholding a tradition, and not at all on their way to growing into a mega-corp or rolling in obscene profits. Don't for a moment think that the motives of a huge multinational corporation, gearing up to making large numbers of cheap clones, are somehow comparatively noble and benevolent and not based on a strict plan to make a good profit.

By all means enjoy the cheap clones, but there should be no reasons to keep talking down Moog's own meticulous Model D recreation and their general existence as almost a cultural institution as much as a synth manufacturer.
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1055
Lives for gear
 
EDGEK8D's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by natrixgli ➡️
Way to race to the bottom, Behringer.

I've always wanted a Model D, now I've got more motivation to buy one. a REAL one, not a cheap knock off.
I kind of agree. I pre-ordered the 16 voice Rev2, partly because I wanted one, partly because it was clearly in response to the DM12. I'm all for inexpensive synths getting into the hands of as many people as possible. What I'm not for is the undercutting of the market with cheap parts and labor, putting pressure on the small manufacturers who create the innovative, hand-made instruments we all know and love, and also basically deleting things like Minibrutes and Volca's all together, unless they cost $50. No thanks. As consumers, we vote with our money. Frankly, it is far more empowering than a vote cast in electoral politics, IMO.
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1056
Deleted b5734b5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeminIAm ➡️
I find this whole thing really sad.

Instead of Behringer designing some kind of "inspired by" synth that just happens to be a 3 vco & 24db ladder filter combo (in an encasing of their own design) that greatly expands upon the Mini whilst making it affordable, which could have been a great hommage that could have gained them many fans, they do this.

This is just lazy, and the timing + slagging off of Moog is just a poor show.
There's a lot of interest in re-issues that don't look like a VST or a VA for the right price.

Companies won't listen to us, so Uli is filling that gap. I don't blame him, really. I believe this is just a phase until some landmark synths are properly re-issued and new stuff will start to appear.
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1057
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice ➡️
Although I'm not privy to the details (and neither are you), I reckon the Model D reissue costs far more than $590 to manufacture (as well as non manufacturing related costs). There's a a few through hole PCBs, a chassis with quite a few metal and wood parts, high quality switchgear, keybed, performance controllers and so on. Much of this is made in tiny quantities to the exact specs of the original. The assembly and calibration process is done by hand in very small batches.

They've gone to lengths to "make a museum quality" recreation of an iconic instrument and a cultural object. It's a very different prospect than making a mass manufactured Chinese built SMT clone with only a voice card and knobs in a simple chassis.

As for "greed", I hardly think Moog is greedy - they're a small company with limited production, upholding a tradition, and not at all on their way to growing into a mega-corp or rolling in obscene profits. Don't for a moment think that the motives a huge multinational corporation, gearing up to making large numbers cheap clones, are somehow comparatively noble and benevolent and not based on a strict plan to make a good profit.

By all means enjoy the cheap clones, but there should be no reasons to keep talking down Moog's own meticulous Model D recreation and their general existence as almost a cultural institution as much as a synth manufacturer.
Model D reissue is just as serviceable as the originals and many will still be working on 30 years

Behringer D...?
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1058
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discopotato ➡️
The Moog employees were given substantial equity as an act of goodwill. That employee-owned company's next move? Obscene markup because of high material and assembly costs. I'm pretty sure there is an actual charity named after Moog; I doubt he would be happy with his business using the appeal of a charity to generate revenue.

That behavior shows no integrity or respect as far as I'm concerned.
1. Do you know what the markup is on their products? Do you know if it is less than/greater than other small musical instrument manufacturers based in the U.S.?

2. The Bob Moog Foundation is a separate entity an unaffiliated with Moog the company. Do you have any citation for Moog using the Foundation as a sales tool?

Facts matter. Speculation, not so much.
Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1059
Lives for gear
 
redloheb's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 60622ed ➡️
Synth Guru...can you warn me when Im about to get a post deleted for insulting someone...so I can actually insult them?
I'm supporting Deleted 60622ed. There were no actual insult in the message.
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1060
Lives for gear
 
DrJustice's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
Model D reissue is just as serviceable as the originals and many will still be working on 30 years
...
There are already 47 year old originals still going strong
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1061
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
Model D reissue is just as serviceable as the originals and many will still be working on 30 years

Behringer D...?
you could just buy 10 Behringer Model D.. with a life span of approximately 5 years you are "safe" the next 50 years, should be sufficient. And on top you have the joy of unpacking a new Behringer Model D every 5 years
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1062
Deleted 60622ed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb ➡️
I'm supporting kcearl. There were no actual insult in the message.
everything I type is passive aggressive


btw that t shirt makes you look far less fat


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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1063
Lives for gear
 
jazzcabbage's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
Model D reissue is just as serviceable as the originals and many will still be working on 30 years

Behringer D...?
Well figure this, say the Behringer D gets you maybe a little over 15 years of use before it dies? By then you'll be a rock star and can afford a Moog Model D clone!
Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1064
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggingForRoots ➡️
So lets say for arguments sake that the parts alone cost 400-500 to make a moog model d. They take 1-3 hours to make. Lets say at $30 dollars and hour to pay the tech who manufactures it that's at most another $90. So that brings us to $590 to manufacture a mini moog. So that's a $2900 markup. Yes of course there are marketing, warehousing, and facilities cost that go into the product but at the end of the day moog got greedy and left themselves open for someone to slid in and take a bigger market share.
You do realize that wholesale to dealers are generally at 50% of MSRP. And you do realize the operational expenses can be a significant with respect to cost of goods.

I'd be surprised if Moog's net margin was north of 15%.

Last edited by jdk998; 10th March 2017 at 03:01 AM.. Reason: double typed
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1065
Deleted 60622ed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh ➡️
Model D reissue is just as serviceable as the originals and many will still be working on 30 years

Behringer D...?
likely not


I do have one of their mixers...dunno 12 years old, its still going strong, and a T1952 as well


though I guess when they go, they go
Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1066
Deleted d59bfd5
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEK8D ➡️
I kind of agree. I pre-ordered the 16 voice Rev2, partly because I wanted one, partly because it was clearly in response to the DM12. I'm all for inexpensive synths getting into the hands of as many people as possible. What I'm not for is the undercutting of the market with cheap parts and labor, putting pressure on the small manufacturers who create the innovative, hand-made instruments we all know and love, and also basically deleting things like Minibrutes and Volca's all together, unless they cost $50. No thanks. As consumers, we vote with our money. Frankly, it is far more empowering than a vote cast in electoral politics, IMO.
What's innovative on re-building an old synth that almost doesn't need any R&D and sell it for 4000 bucks?

So each time when Behringer will come up with a clone of a popular synth you will end in buying a DSI or Moog synth as protest? You should make some room then, cause there's a lot more synths to come from Behringer.

Yay for having the choice
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1067
Deleted User
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I am looking forward experimenting with the Behringer Model D like Helge (it's German, but he let's the synth speak anyway)

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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1068
Deleted b5734b5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decoder23 ➡️
I am looking forward experimenting with the Behringer Model D like Helge (it's German, but he let's the synth speak anyway)

Ahaha!

Hard to tell which one has more character, the player or the synth!
Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1069
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by decoder23 ➡️
I am looking forward experimenting with the Behringer Model D like Helge (it's German, but he let's the synth speak anyway)

So... Does it sound horrible because this unit is broken, or ?
Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1070
330128
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdk998 ➡️
You do realize that wholesale to dealers are generally at 50% of MSRP. And you do realize the operational expenses can be a significant with respect to cost of goods.

I'd be surprised if Moog's net margin was north of 15%.


That would be my guess too.

The "new" Buchla charges $4.5k for a Music Easel. How much can Behringer make one of them for?

What is the parts cost on your average 1k Euro module?

Does Behringer have the same mfg cost/sale price ratio for all their products?

Is Uli Count Dracula of the synth world or Ghandi providing much needed mojo to the less fortunate?
Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1071
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Accent ➡️
They did a mock up. You can call it a fcuk up if it comes to market and doesn't have patch storage.
I would slightly argue that IF it has full midi implementation then patch storage is irrelevant. Let the sequencer or computer dump the patch in.. The only reason it was a breakthrough in the early years is because proper sysex and/or midi control was not around..

and if its the difference between 400$ and 500$ they stand to sell a lot more units...

all that said, I would prefer patch storage. That's why I chose the BSII over the Minibrute a few years ago.
Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1072
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggingForRoots ➡️
So lets say for arguments sake that the parts alone cost 400-500 to make a moog model d. They take 1-3 hours to make. Lets say at $30 dollars and hour to pay the tech who manufactures it that's at most another $90.
...
1-3 hours to make a Minimoog?

Blimey, I want to meet this tech!

Does he wear a cape and his underpants outside his trousers?
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1073
Lives for gear
 
WozNYC's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggingForRoots ➡️

So lets say for arguments sake that the parts alone cost 400-500 to make a moog model d. They take 1-3 hours to make. Lets say at $30 dollars and hour to pay the tech who manufactures it that's at most another $90. So that brings us to $590 to manufacture a mini moog. So that's a $2900 markup.
Do you honestly believe ONE person can assemble an entire Minimoog in 1-3 hours?
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1074
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz ➡️


I hear the mailing list for this is quite large..
To me the ubiquity of these things is all the more reason to ignore them. Though there are some people with something akin to skill with drum machines, mostly they are popular because they don't require skill. Anyone can turn one on. I blame a number of things not the least of which is aggressive marketing.

Aggressive marketing has made the clone business boom because people with strange, pie in the sky dreams of stardom think that if just had the right box they could be a star. That is marketing and probably accounts for a large mailing list for yet another clone that I'm sure, according to the manufacturer, sounds 99.9999999% as good as the original. As if that really matters.

Its not all that bad and hopeless. With all these electronic instruments out there, all it takes is a spark to ignite the fire. What it doesn't take is another cloned gadget.
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1075
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by oche ecaps ➡️
The subject is "Behringer Mini model D? A good idea?" My answer is that no, it's not a good idea. It's not a cool thing to do and it makes Behringer look like petty competitive jerks and reinforces the idea that Behringer just makes cheap knockoffs and can't innovate on their own. Which is too bad given that they seemed to be moving in the opposite direction recently.
Actually, I think it makes Behringer look like pretty sophisticated business people who've survived in this business for almost 30 years. Everyone else is just <deleted by moderator - keep it civil, please>

Last edited by Reptil; 10th March 2017 at 05:10 AM.. Reason: -
Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1076
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 330128 ➡️


That would be my guess too.

The "new" Buchla charges $4.5k for a Music Easel. How much can Behringer make one of them for?
I don't know but I damn well hope they have a go..
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Old 10th March 2017
  #1077
Moderator
 
Reptil's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Just came home an hour ago, and I've been thinking. It's about the sound, isn't it?
If Behringer pulls off to mimic the Moog inc. Minimoog in a very cheap, fully machine assembled board, then it also means those SMD capacitors are really good. Also it means, practically, that all kinds of manufacturers can use these parts to not make hundreds of varying Minimoog clones , but to make gear that is unique for that company using SMD production. Because you can build other filter types, all kinds of things using the same parts. That's big news for the whole industry. That said, I like through-hole, it's more fun to solder. If I were Uli, and I'm not, I'd make a prototype (not for sale) of the Minimoog just to show off, and then produce a modern monosynth with some radically new synthesis functions, and efficiënt, clear but deep controls, a characteristic sound and make it absolutely kickass.
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Old 10th March 2017 | Show parent
  #1078
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drockfresh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
This really is the *clone wars*

Machines building machines
Old 10th March 2017
  #1079
Deleted 153c85c
Guest
I have noticed that there is a lot of excitement around this product and the quality of its components.

We want to be very open with you and give you visibility into our-end-to-end process.

Please find the schematics we drew last week and feel free to ask any questions.

Next in line is the PCB layout and once finished, we will assemble the first prototype.

Uli
Attached Files
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Old 10th March 2017
  #1080
Lives for gear
 
mallery7's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I don't get the aversion by some synth manufacturers about repeating the past. Strats and Les Pauls have been made forever and guitars are reissued all the time. If it's not financially feasible I understand but there is a demand and I don't see why more synth companies do it.
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