Originally Posted by oldgearguy ➡️

I know that, but it didn't answer my question of what they did to get from point A to point B.

Originally Posted by Coorec ➡️

Sorry Scott, but i dont get your argument. Standard industry parts are not worse than special parts.

Originally Posted by Uli Behringer ➡️

Hi Reginator,

Thank you for the questions.

Let me start by saying if you assemble the same circuitry with components of the same specifications you will get the same audio results. Whether these are through-hole or SMT components is of no impact.

Our goal is to build a unit that sounds identical to the Moog D reissue. For this purpose we acquired a unit, reverse engineered it in order to compare it with the original circuitry as well as to evaluate component specifications. We recently published the schematics so you can compare the circuitry for yourself.

Our Model D synth will be using high-quality 1% metal film resistors throughout the whole design and in some parts of the oscillator circuitry, we will be using even components with 0.1% tolerance – exactly in line with the reference model. In order to keep the oscillators stable, we have selected quite expensive Polyphenyline Sulphide capacitors which have very low temperature dependencies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_capacitor

Our design will also feature matched JFET’s and other high-quality semiconductors from reputable manufacturers. Even if some companies claim that they use components which are “sourced” in the US, the chance they are actually made in China or other Asian places is very high.
In today’s time almost all electronic components are made in the Far East. For example the Model D Reissue uses VR’s made by Taiwan Alpha, a Chinese vendor we are also using for our products.

Because analog components do have inherent tolerances which accumulate when combined in a circuitry, multiple trimmers are required in the Model D design, and hence you will find the same trimmers in our design.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimmer_(electronics)

These trimmers are set during the manufacturing and testing procedure and like in the reference design, their purpose is to calibrate oscillator and filter frequencies, VCA gain and cross-feed, etc.
We might be publishing the testing and calibration procedures for all the electronic savvy people among you, but you can also simply refer to the original service manual.

Will it sound the same?

Well, we’ll leave this answer to you and also some synth experts we are planning to invite for a “double blind” test which is one of the most objective ways to remove bias and “fairy dust”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment

Uli

Originally Posted by Scott Wozniak ➡️

Is that always the case?
I mean right now I need a replacement floppy drive for an old sampler.
The great original part is almost impossible to find. The commonly available part is frankly, crap.
My theory sounds just as much of a stretch as yours proposing that commonly available parts are better
than harder-to-source parts.

Originally Posted by Scott Wozniak ➡️

Is that always the case?
I mean right now I need a replacement floppy drive for an old sampler.
The great original part is almost impossible to find. The commonly available part is frankly, crap.
My theory sounds just as much of a stretch as yours proposing that commonly available parts are better
than harder-to-source parts.

Originally Posted by Uli Behringer ➡️

I just saw your question and please allow me to comment.

We have a new Model D Reissue on our workbench which we compared to the original schematics. You will find that some minor changes were made.

Our version is based on the same circuitry, component values and tolerances of the Reissue Model, which uses all modern and easily available components. What we also found is that in the Reissue Model, components are to a large extent auto-inserted - some even with SMT packaging.

Someone earlier asked about the accessibility of the trim pots in order to calibrate the unit. I can confirm that all VR's are easily accessible from the back of the PCB once the unit is removed from the casing.

Uli

Originally Posted by OurDarkness ➡️

But when I see kids coming in service departments to get their Behringer compressor fixed and there's a LED inside to fool the unaware buyer into thinking that tubes increase their intensity when boosting the make-up gain

Originally Posted by Vertflyer ➡️

I really hope Uli takes the time and gets this right. Don't rush. The minimoog has been around for 45 years, we can wait. If it takes an extra 6 months to get the thing to sound exactly like a minimoog then take that time. If you want to just barge ahead and make money by claiming you did everything you could to copy the schematics but then don't take the time to develop the clone to sound right, then you need to reevaluate what you are willing to call a clone. Please, just get it right, and don't sell yourself short. Show us you are more than just about money. I want a $400 minimoog. Not a $400 generic synth.

And btw, I'll ask again. Can you please add a mod amount knob? Otherwise the the noise, osc3, and extra lfo are useless for people who want to use the thing without a midi mod wheel.

Originally Posted by Scott Wozniak ➡️

Is that always the case?
I mean right now I need a replacement floppy drive for an old sampler.
The great original part is almost impossible to find. The commonly available part is frankly, crap.
My theory sounds just as much of a stretch as yours proposing that commonly available parts are better
than harder-to-source parts.

Originally Posted by fiddlestickz ➡️

You like thick women..??? lol..

Originally Posted by FatB ➡️

To marcgood, and me thinking you knew something about making music (yeah you never said so, I assumed), if you dont understand that the most important part of Mutantt's comment is "produced", then there is no point trying to explain ...

Originally Posted by wagoo ➡️

Some other examples of companies you need to berate, then...

Originally Posted by wagoo ➡️

The point is sometimes things are for aesthetic reasons, rather than trying to be a deception.

Originally Posted by marcgood ➡️

Posted this in another thread to address the false belief it costs Moog $200 to build a Model D.

It may cost Uli that since his is built in China with automation. By hand in America costs a lot more.

Originally Posted by fiddlestickz ➡️

You like thick women..??? lol..

Originally Posted by Uli Behringer ➡️

I just saw your question and please allow me to comment.

We have a new Model D Reissue on our workbench which we compared to the original schematics. You will find that some minor changes were made.

Our version is based on the same circuitry, component values and tolerances of the Reissue Model, which uses all modern and easily available components. What we also found is that in the Reissue Model, components are to a large extent auto-inserted - some even with SMT packaging.

Someone earlier asked about the accessibility of the trim pots in order to calibrate the unit. I can confirm that all VR's are easily accessible from the back of the PCB once the unit is removed from the casing.

Uli

Originally Posted by pppch ➡️

I see some Employees who Screw some pre-built Parts together and and put it in Boxes.
Where is the higher Value , maybe the Boxes..

Originally Posted by Discopotato ➡️

And Moog likely fuels the whole local economy with Tourism revenue as well. It's great for them that their markup covers those costs for the workers and their families in ONE TINY CITY IN THE SOUTH

Originally Posted by golden beers ➡️

Thick means heavy set in US. and stupid in UK. I guess in AUS too

Originally Posted by Discopotato ➡️

And Moog likely fuels the whole local economy with Tourism revenue as well. It's great for them that their markup covers those costs for the workers and their families in ONE TINY CITY IN THE SOUTH, but from a global perspective Behringer employs 5x as many engineers who earned degrees as Moog does humans. How many Chinese people have been saved from the famines that once killed MILLIONS in China under Mao's authoritarian rule when manufacturers went off-shore and paid those people SOMETHING? What are the rates of Obesity and obesity related illnesses in the South? So we're expected to pay for THAT in addition to the actual instruments? I'll pass. They definitely won't starve I know that much.

Originally Posted by marcgood ➡️

I know full well the difference between production and dry sounding. The point of posting that video was to show what the end result of the Moog sound is. I've already posted a dry video for the original D and the reissue. ALL of these videos show a superior sound to Uli's D.

We'll have to wait and see how close he gets.

Originally Posted by daviddever ➡️

...which is where I stopped reading. The rest is inappropriate and off-topic.

Originally Posted by marcgood ➡️

Posted this in another thread to address the false belief it costs Moog $200 to build a Model D.



It may cost Uli that since his is built in China with automation. By hand in America costs a lot more.

Originally Posted by OurDarkness ➡️

Definitely. When we see a new thread about it, why not?



We can discuss aesthetics for ages, but for me personally there is no such thing as Behringer aesthetics.

Originally Posted by Looping Loddar ➡️

I have been very, very happy about the design choices of the Behringer D and the prospect of a wonderful product. But: Concerning the "D" i wasn't aware that Behringer reverse-engeneered a CURRENT PRODUCT and copy this. No, i don't think this is a fair business practise. Usually i defend Behringer.

Not here.

I don't mind if they copy products which are 20 or 30 years old. This case is a bit different, and i am quite sure the reverse-engeneering helped Behringer to reduce development costs.

I am not an expert for electronic components, or the production of products like this. Maybe this is a common business tactic. I just don't consider it as fair competing. And yes, i know, that the original blue print is quite older. The point is: Behringer reduced development cost when they reversed-engeneered the current product from Moog Music.

At least they should pay some license fee in respect for the work of other people.