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Casio VZ10m vs Kawai K5m
Old 24th January 2020 | Show parent
  #121
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Mastropiero's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 ➡️
I'd love to try. I'm the kind of person that programs in Assembler for fun, so a Matrix 12 will be a relaxing afternoon for me.

I've always been able to visualise data in my head. Loads of esoteric synths, including an old DX9, I used to program from the front-panel. I would not be surprised if my old youtube channel (benanderson88) that got wiped because of a ****-up by Google was solely responsible for the massive price increase on Casio CZ synthesizers. I had so many demo videos for my old CZ-3000.

Off topic, but here's two pure CZ1 demo that I'm particularly proud of. I'm still blown away myself at how well I programmed that E-Piano in the Beauty and the Beast line. Add external Chorus and voila.

Back on topic
Casio VZ-1 FTW. Once you know what you're doing it's one of the single most interesting synthesizers out there. If Casio were to re-release the VZ with a larger display and nothing else changed I'd buy one so quickly.
Another assembly guy here... Zilog/Motorola mainly, a bit of ARM and nothing that smells like Intel.
Old 24th January 2020 | Show parent
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastropiero ➡️
Another assembly guy here... Zilog/Motorola mainly, a bit of ARM and nothing that smells like Intel.
MOS 6500 series for me. First learned to program in BASIC on a BBC Model B, then I found out BBC BASIC had a built in 6502 Assembler so I learned that. Now I have the new C64 replica and I've been learning the ins-and-outs of it's particular implementation for it's 6510 CPU using Turbo Macro Pro.



Been wanting to make a game recently. Was honestly thinking of programming one for the C64 and distributing it somewhere like GOG bundled with a C64 emulator. Rikki and Vikki on Steam does that; it's written for the Atari 7800 and it's bundled with a stripped back emulator to play it (was also available on a limited run cartridge).

https://store.steampowered.com/app/893690/Rikki__Vikki/
Old 24th January 2020 | Show parent
  #123
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 ➡️
MOS 6500 series for me. First learned to program in BASIC on a BBC Model B, then I found out BBC BASIC had a built in 6502 Assembler so I learned that. Now I have the new C64 replica and I've been learning the ins-and-outs of it's particular implementation for it's 6510 CPU using Turbo Macro Pro.
Similar story here, although I’m an MSX developer.
Old 24th January 2020 | Show parent
  #124
Deleted cda76ca 🎙️
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 ➡️
I'd love to try. I'm the kind of person that programs in Assembler for fun, so a Matrix 12 will be a relaxing afternoon for me.

I've always been able to visualise data in my head. Loads of esoteric synths, including an old DX9, I used to program from the front-panel. I would not be surprised if my old youtube channel (benanderson88) that got wiped because of a ****-up by Google was solely responsible for the massive price increase on Casio CZ synthesizers. I had so many demo videos for my old CZ-3000.

Off topic, but here's two pure CZ1 demo that I'm particularly proud of. I'm still blown away myself at how well I programmed that E-Piano in the Beauty and the Beast line. Add external Chorus and voila.

Back on topic
Casio VZ-1 FTW. Once you know what you're doing it's one of the single most interesting synthesizers out there. If Casio were to re-release the VZ with a larger display and nothing else changed I'd buy one so quickly.
Were you the person who got PWM out of a CZ3000? I remember a video where someone did that.
Old 24th January 2020 | Show parent
  #125
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benanderson89's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted cda76ca ➡️
Were you the person who got PWM out of a CZ3000? I remember a video where someone did that.
Yes. I got a sort-of PWM out of a CZ-3000. Basically two saw waves very slightly detuned (we're talking 1 cent, 2 at most) and one of the oscillators given a very gentle, very long pitch envelope in either direction. The two waves phase together and you get something not dissimilar to PWM.

Likewise I also had MANY metallic tones, because I realised that the Ring Mod function on a CZ synthesizer isn't actually Ring Mod, it's FM; it turns line one into a Carrier and line two into the Modulator, which is why when line 1 is muted you don't hear line 2.

Combine both tricks together and I have a patch on my CZ-1 that sounds close to the D-50 brass preset (think Boys by Sabrina).

It's why if you're going to go for a weird synthesizer, skip the Kawai and go for something from Casio. They really were one of the last bastions of innovation. Even today I still recommend Casio for oddball synthesis, because I have a PX5S digital Piano that contains a six oscillator ROM based synthesizer with some of the dirtiest digital filters I've come across.
Old 24th January 2020 | Show parent
  #126
Deleted cda76ca 🎙️
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 ➡️
Yes. I got a sort-of PWM out of a CZ-3000. Basically two saw waves very slightly detuned (we're talking 1 cent, 2 at most) and one of the oscillators given a very gentle, very long pitch envelope in either direction. The two waves phase together and you get something not dissimilar to PWM.

Likewise I also had MANY metallic tones, because I realised that the Ring Mod function on a CZ synthesizer isn't actually Ring Mod, it's FM; it turns line one into a Carrier and line two into the Modulator, which is why when line 1 is muted you don't hear line 2.

Combine both tricks together and I have a patch on my CZ-1 that sounds close to the D-50 brass preset (think Boys by Sabrina).

It's why if you're going to go for a weird synthesizer, skip the Kawai and go for something from Casio. They really were one of the last bastions of innovation. Even today I still recommend Casio for oddball synthesis, because I have a PX5S digital Piano that contains a six oscillator ROM based synthesizer with some of the dirtiest digital filters I've come across.
Yeah I’m a big fan of Casio.

In my own collection I have, in addition to a few oddball home keyboards, an FZ1, HT6000 (well, the Hohner version), and the CTK1000, a very odd keyboard with sync/waveshaping etc hidden in the presets.
Old 24th January 2020 | Show parent
  #127
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Mastropiero's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 ➡️
Yes. I got a sort-of PWM out of a CZ-3000. Basically two saw waves very slightly detuned (we're talking 1 cent, 2 at most) and one of the oscillators given a very gentle, very long pitch envelope in either direction. The two waves phase together and you get something not dissimilar to PWM.

Likewise I also had MANY metallic tones, because I realised that the Ring Mod function on a CZ synthesizer isn't actually Ring Mod, it's FM; it turns line one into a Carrier and line two into the Modulator, which is why when line 1 is muted you don't hear line 2.

Combine both tricks together and I have a patch on my CZ-1 that sounds close to the D-50 brass preset (think Boys by Sabrina).

It's why if you're going to go for a weird synthesizer, skip the Kawai and go for something from Casio. They really were one of the last bastions of innovation. Even today I still recommend Casio for oddball synthesis, because I have a PX5S digital Piano that contains a six oscillator ROM based synthesizer with some of the dirtiest digital filters I've come across.
I have both . I agree that the CZ and the VZ are great instruments that you can explore and rediscover for your whole life. But I think the Kawai K5000S plays in the same league as the Casios, and it’s still superior in some aspects. Having a complex, loopable envelope per harmonic x 6 sources (plus AM between two of them, plus resonant filter) looks like an alien instrument. Maybe the problem is that its complexity is so huge that it isn’t fully comprehensible by a human sound designer.
Old 24th January 2020 | Show parent
  #128
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Hollowman9's Avatar
I have the CZ-1, VZ10m and XWP1. I think the CZ has the highest instant gratification factor. I also has the K5000W which is probably the lowest IG factor because there's so many parameters to page through before you start getting significant results.
The sound engines on the XWP1 are fairly painless to edit too but you can get bogged down scrolling through the long list of PCMs 6 times over. Mostly I exploit the glitches in the Solo Synth engine though, talk about filthy trashy sounds....
Old 25th January 2020
  #129
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord ➡️
the usual "it sounds like yamaha dx/tx" happens if one is half listening without really paying attention, or doesn't really know the yamahas in detail. otherwise, its clear as day this is a distinct character, different harmonics up there, that you simply cannot get on a yamaha. this is why i kept the vz10m, next to my sy77.
I'd say the VZ excels at a few weird niche things, namely sounds with odd rhythmic qualities (if you use a low/fixed frequency sawtooth wave with ring modulation, for example, or complicated envelopes), and really nasty aggressive sounds (phase modulation on sawtooth waves). As far as the FM stuff goes, I like the TG77 a lot more, but ring modulation in the VZ adds a nice quality that nothing else can really cover. The thing that irritates me about it is the lack of free-running oscillators (although sticking to the topic, the K5 doesn't have free running oscillators either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowman9 ➡️
Those are excellent sounds. Some serious sound programming there. And I enjoyed the music too! Quite relaxing.
Well, there's a lot of ESQ-M and stuff in there too.

There's more here, although the Ensoniq EPS is kind of the star there. The VZ mostly does background drones while the EPS does the glitchy sample stuff.

Also I should have posted these before since there's more VZ content:






I have a lot more recordings that I'm intending to compile into more releases, but I listening to it now makes me feel kind of gross.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastropiero ➡️
The music is really nice. It could have been done by Philip Glass.
I got over the minimalism thing though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted cda76ca ➡️
Were you the person who got PWM out of a CZ3000? I remember a video where someone did that.
I got PWM out of the VZ too. Like real PWM, although it sort of thins out at narrow pulse widths.
Old 28th January 2020 | Show parent
  #130
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Hollowman9's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by acreil ➡️

There's more here, although the Ensoniq EPS is kind of the star there. The VZ mostly does background drones while the EPS does the glitchy sample stuff.
Yeah the fixed frequency stuff with the VZ is mad crazy and no FM synth can touch it. Adds motion to sounds or turns them into doomsday alarm clock sounds.

Tell me more about the glitchy EPS stuff. What does it entail?
I've only use my EPS as a percussion box or for synth loop grunging. Not spent time with more intense sound design type things. Tell me more.

Also, the linked music there, really f**king awesome! Love it! The glitches and eerily menacing VZ stuff is a beautiful combo.
Bravo!


Quote:
Originally Posted by acreil ➡️

I got PWM out of the VZ too. Like real PWM, although it sort of thins out at narrow pulse widths.
Inquiring minds want to know. How make PWM in VZ? Please tell.....

Oh and track 8. EPS? How?
That $hit is nuts!

Last edited by Hollowman9; 28th January 2020 at 03:01 AM.. Reason: Trk 8
Old 28th January 2020
  #131
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowman9 ➡️
Yeah the fixed frequency stuff with the VZ is mad crazy and no FM synth can touch it. Adds motion to sounds or turns them into doomsday alarm clock sounds.
I appreciate also that the oscillator ratios can go from 1/64 to 64, unlike 1/2 to 32 in the Yamaha stuff.

Quote:
Tell me more about the glitchy EPS stuff. What does it entail?
I've only use my EPS as a percussion box or for synth loop grunging. Not spent time with more intense sound design type things. Tell me more.
Mess around with the loop points, and use the "random" thing, mostly. Extra credit for abusing the looping envelopes.

Quote:
Also, the linked music there, really f**king awesome! Love it! The glitches and eerily menacing VZ stuff is a beautiful combo.
Bravo!
Thanks. I don't feel great about it now, but it was the best I could do when I was 19.

Quote:
Inquiring minds want to know. How make PWM in VZ? Please tell.....
I forgot exactly, but I think it involves a sawtooth wave modulator at twice the carrier frequency, sine carrier, and low a fixed frequency sine modulator as the LFO. I think it takes 3 oscillators to do one PWM thing, so you can layer two of them, and also control the PWM depth with the mod wheel.

Quote:
Oh and track 8. EPS? How?
That $hit is nuts!
Loop point modulation. The original sample was the Alesis Quadraverb ring modulator in a feedback loop. I also tended to sample Casio keyboards (PT-80 drum patterns and a circuit bent SA-5) and bowls and stuff from the kitchen.
Old 28th January 2020 | Show parent
  #132
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Hollowman9's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by acreil ➡️
I appreciate also that the oscillator ratios can go from 1/64 to 64, unlike 1/2 to 32 in the Yamaha stuff.



Mess around with the loop points, and use the "random" thing, mostly. Extra credit for abusing the looping envelopes.



Thanks. I don't feel great about it now, but it was the best I could do when I was 19.



I forgot exactly, but I think it involves a sawtooth wave modulator at twice the carrier frequency, sine carrier, and low a fixed frequency sine modulator as the LFO. I think it takes 3 oscillators to do one PsWM thing, so you can layer two of them, and also control the PWM depth with the mod wheel.



Loop point modulation. The original sample was the Alesis Quadraverb ring modulator in a feedback loop. I also tended to sample Casio keyboards (PT-80 drum patterns and a circuit bent SA-5) and bowls and stuff from the kitchen.
This is really good info, thanks for sharing it. I'm looking at my EPSM with a whole new appreciation. And my VZ too for that matter. Time to up my programming game with these machines.
I think I see where you're coming from with the PWM. Cancellations. I'll see if I can make it happen next time I hunker down to poke at the beast.
Old 29th January 2020 | Show parent
  #133
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🎧 5 years
Off topic I know- but there seem to be a lot of love (& users)of the Casio VZ here, so a quick question please.

Mine usually a bit painful to transfer to transfer presets over midi into it.
I figure the RA500 card is all but impossible to find (well I havent found one in searching for about 2 years now anyway!).

So million dollar question is there an alternative RAM card?????
I am mainly asking cause there are ebay sellers claiming to sell casio ES100 cards that are VZ compatible - but I am 99% doubtful about this, has anyone actually tried one in their VZ?

(I am aware of the internet page noted about the potential to convert a VZ ROM to RAM card but the ROMs are almost as rare and I had a tech friend of mine look at it and he didnt think really viable - be interesting if anyone had actually done it though?)
Old 29th January 2020 | Show parent
  #134
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Mastropiero's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJKrishna ➡️
Off topic I know- but there seem to be a lot of love (& users)of the Casio VZ here, so a quick question please.

Mine usually a bit painful to transfer to transfer presets over midi into it.
I figure the RA500 card is all but impossible to find (well I havent found one in searching for about 2 years now anyway!).

So million dollar question is there an alternative RAM card?????
I am mainly asking cause there are ebay sellers claiming to sell casio ES100 cards that are VZ compatible - but I am 99% doubtful about this, has anyone actually tried one in their VZ?

(I am aware of the internet page noted about the potential to convert a VZ ROM to RAM card but the ROMs are almost as rare and I had a tech friend of mine look at it and he didnt think really viable - be interesting if anyone had actually done it though?)
Why is it painful to transfer presets over MIDI?

I had a RAM Card but sold it with the Casio VZ-1 (now I use a VZ-10m and no cards since I don't need them anymore).
Old 29th January 2020 | Show parent
  #135
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🎧 5 years
Fair question.
I am very much the sort of person that frustrated easily if a synth isn’t quickly accessible/ connectable.

On the odd occasion I want to put some new presets in it usually takes several attempts and often the presets are bit screwed up when I am successful.( using either midi ox or soundiver same problem).

Mainly because it’s in a really awkward position in lowest space in my rack- so it involve a torch and physical contortion to get both midi in & out leads into it & to pc ( naturally I have midi input much more conveniently plumbed into patch bay most of time, yes I could move it but it would the just mean a synth I use a lot more often would now be in the same awkward spot).

I would just like convenience of instant extra patch’s available if I could actually find a RA500 or alternative...
Old 29th January 2020 | Show parent
  #136
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJKrishna ➡️
Fair question.
I am very much the sort of person that frustrated easily if a synth isn’t quickly accessible/ connectable.

On the odd occasion I want to put some new presets in it usually takes several attempts and often the presets are bit screwed up when I am successful.( using either midi ox or soundiver same problem).

Mainly because it’s in a really awkward position in lowest space in my rack- so it involve a torch and physical contortion to get both midi in & out leads into it & to pc ( naturally I have midi input much more conveniently plumbed into patch bay most of time, yes I could move it but it would the just mean a synth I use a lot more often would now be in the same awkward spot).

I would just like convenience of instant extra patch’s available if I could actually find a RA500 or alternative...
I see. I use a Roland A-880 for MIDI routing/merging/patching, so messing with inputs/outputs of my rackmount synths is a lot easier. When I installed my VZ-10m in the rack I already left MIDI cables connected to the A-880 and now I just have to press one button to select it as an input source or output destination.

Using MIDIOX caused me lots of troubles; it's a fantastic tool for MIDI analysis but it is a pain in the neck if you use it just to transfer sysex data. You have to deal with buffers amount and size until you find the optimum setup.

That's why I always recommend Bome SendSX. It's simpler than any other sysex tool and works flawless with most synths.

What MIDI interface do you use to send sysex? Some USB interfaces are a bit tricky for this purpose.

The RA500 is, of course, the best alternative if you really need to get extra patch storage on your VZ. But keep in mind that, unless you program the 64 new patches by yourself (and it's not an easy task on an FM synth), the RA500 still needs to be fed with new stuff that you'll have to transfer via MIDI.
Old 29th January 2020 | Show parent
  #137
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Hollowman9's Avatar
Try inquiring about the CZ/PL. If it works with the CZ's maybe it also works with the VZ.

https://lewismidi.com/

Actually I just sent an email about it. I'll let you know if I get a response.
Old 29th January 2020 | Show parent
  #138
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IEstyn responded and he says his device will work fine with the VZ-1.
Old 29th January 2020 | Show parent
  #139
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clusterchord's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by acreil ➡️
There's more here, although the Ensoniq EPS is kind of the star there. The VZ mostly does background drones while the EPS does the glitchy sample stuff.

great stuff. i listened to the whole album yesterday and really enjoyed it. both the eps mangling as well as vz drones
Old 30th January 2020 | Show parent
  #140
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowman9 ➡️
IEstyn responded and he says his device will work fine with the VZ-1.
Thats an excellent idea, saw the PL88 looks like a great piece of kit!

But I’d still like to know if the es100 Casio cards ( or anything else) do actually work in the VZ?
Old 30th January 2020 | Show parent
  #141
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Mastropiero's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJKrishna ➡️
Thats an excellent idea, saw the PL88 looks like a great piece of kit!

But I’d still like to know if the es100 Casio cards ( or anything else) do actually work in the VZ?
It does, according to this page:

https://www.casio880.com/en/product/...vz-ra-500-521/

Some people have managed to convert a ROM card into a RAM card:

http://www.warningwillrobinson.com.a...iles/RA500.htm
Old 30th January 2020 | Show parent
  #142
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastropiero ➡️
It does, according to this page:

https://www.casio880.com/en/product/...vz-ra-500-521/

Some people have managed to convert a ROM card into a RAM card:

http://www.warningwillrobinson.com.a...iles/RA500.htm
Thanks for the link page but that’s exactly my question- there are claims they are compatible but as they still cost quite a bit I was hoping some on here could actually confirm that they had used one in a vz successfully.

Unfortunately same thing with the conversion, I’ve mentioned it above it looks like a proposal, as I cant find anywhere if it’s ever actually been done ( when I had a tech friend investigate the info on that page it he didn’t think it was viable)- probably moot anyway as VZ rom cards are so rare anyway.

It’s a shame as there been some fantastic projects-( the only one I’m aware of are modern multi card versions of Roland MC and also M512 cards, also Yamaha Sy multi Ram cards) but don’t ever seem done for less common synths like Korg, Casio ( cz cards aren’t easy to come by either!) or Kawai.
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