The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
EMU z-plane filters, that "emu sound"
Old 23rd September 2016
  #61
Gear Nut
 
Zero Crossing's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Morpheus

Dave Rossum is currently developing a eurorack module with Z-Plane filters. Maybe somebody should get his permission before stealing his design.
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #62
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-cytomic ➑️
Brilliant! Thanks very much millionmiles

Those sweeps with high resonance definitely show the numerical instability of the z-plane filters at high cutoff with high resonance, this is some pretty nasty (not good) crackling. This makes sense since I've not heard anyone yet that wants that "emu sound" that uses high resonance, I'm guessing it's because they break!

Would it be possible to do one more set with "medium res" ? Both low and high pass are all that are needed, thanks!
@ andy-cytomic : here are LP/HP filters at a medium resonance sweep (64, between 0-127). let me know if there's a more accurate or useful way to sweep, design the env, or if there's a particular saw wave you can post that can serve as reference...

https://mega.nz/#!eNwTzZhZ!Ke5RbG1Gp...WFkakzAzXni3OE

also seconding all of optical's comments re. the sweet sound of multiple stages of drive and filtering, especially when working with samples loops created over successive generations of filtering and modulation that are baked-in each pass.

i imagine that could be like the sound of stacking 10 instances of the drop in series, each with its own envelope shape and saturation... and if good digital saturation is as difficult on CPU as you say it is, then 10 instances of that in series would bring any modern computer to its knees just in processing alone, no? as it is, my computer can't even run the u-he repro-one demo. and curious if you have any relevant thoughts on that project in relation to this thread...?
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #63
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oli ➑️
I have an E4XT Ultra in Perth I could lend you, if you would like to explore the sampler in person.
Oh yes please! Can you please send me an email Oli so we can sort out details? [email protected]
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #64
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Crossing ➑️
Morpheus

Dave Rossum is currently developing a eurorack module with Z-Plane filters. Maybe somebody should get his permission before stealing his design.
Perhaps re-read the thread in a bit more detail and you will see no one is trying to steal anything. I've also emailed Dave and asked him to join in the thread so he can talk about his new product, and I've already recommended people in this thread grab his product if they want the exact e6400 processing because I'm not interested in any exact bit for bit emulations
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #65
Oli
Lives for gear
 
Oli's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-cytomic ➑️
Oh yes please! Can you please send me an email Oli so we can sort out details? [email protected]
Will do.
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #66
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by millionmiles ➑️
@ andy-cytomic : here are LP/HP filters at a medium resonance sweep (64, between 0-127). let me know if there's a more accurate or useful way to sweep, design the env, or if there's a particular saw wave you can post that can serve as reference...

https://mega.nz/#!eNwTzZhZ!Ke5RbG1Gp...WFkakzAzXni3OE

also seconding all of optical's comments re. the sweet sound of multiple stages of drive and filtering, especially when working with samples loops created over successive generations of filtering and modulation that are baked-in each pass.

i imagine that could be like the sound of stacking 10 instances of the drop in series, each with its own envelope shape and saturation... and if good digital saturation is as difficult on CPU as you say it is, then 10 instances of that in series would bring any modern computer to its knees just in processing alone, no? as it is, my computer can't even run the u-he repro-one demo. and curious if you have any relevant thoughts on that project in relation to this thread...?
Thanks for these! Can I please double check that the medium res samples were also captured from the digital output of the emu?

It's pretty clear there are major numerical problems with z-plane filters at high frequencies with even medium resonance, here is the same open filter with medium and no resonance on the same input with the low pass 4 pole filter, perhaps this plays a part of the "emu sound"?


This looks like massive high frequency boosting to me, so I tried to reproduce it with EQ8, I had to use two high shelf filters with 15 dB gain each (so 30 dB gain total), Q 0.1 and frequency 16000 hz and it looks pretty accurate:


If this massive high frequency boost is then clipped, resampled, and done again it would definitely lead to pretty nasty sounding samples.

And there is also a fair bit of noise from the digital output including mains hum at the end of the samples:



So I think we're tracking down a bit of what is going on
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #67
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by millionmiles ➑️
...
i imagine that could be like the sound of stacking 10 instances of the drop in series, each with its own envelope shape and saturation... and if good digital saturation is as difficult on CPU as you say it is, then 10 instances of that in series would bring any modern computer to its knees just in processing alone, no? as it is, my computer can't even run the u-he repro-one demo. and curious if you have any relevant thoughts on that project in relation to this thread...?
Forgot to comment on this last bit

Yes, 10 copies of The Drop in series with oversampling enough to keep things sounding nice will kill anything, but you can always bounce, then reprocess, then bounce again etc, just like you would with the EMU sampler - it's really the only option! Urs is a good friend of mine, but I am not familiar with his latest release, other than you saying it takes a lot of cpu. The Drop is pretty spectacularly efficient, I've honed every bit of fat off the math to make it as lean as possible over a 2 year period. I'm sure Urs will improve on his current release too, but some things just take lots of cpu to sound good.
Old 23rd September 2016
  #68
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Great thread!

I joined gearslutz today and what an introduction, Optical talking about E-mus!

I grew up listening to and djing dnb from '95 onwards and always loved the sound of early tracks, the rawness was always there. But the more dnb develops now the more synthetic it sounds.

I've only been making music about 2 years and the thing I've always struggled with is getting my basses to sound how I want. The Ed Rush & Optical example used earlier in this thread is a great example. ITB has been great for getting me going but everything just sounds so clinical to me. Even distorting/saturating sounds to dirty them up still sounds, to my ears anyway, that a computer has done it rather than a bit of hardware. It's almost like its a perfectly clean algorithm for making something dirty if that makes any sense?!

I grabbed an E6400 Ultra from ebay about 9 months ago and it's been like a magic box for bass sounds! Even a 'bad' sound that I make in it is still 10x better than the best ITB sounds I was making. To my ear the character is so much more important that anything else.

I guess all this is leading up to the fact that I was trying to get 'that E-MU sound' ITB and realised that after spending a fair amount on plugins and too many hours to count trying, for me there seemed no way to do it. In hindsight it's now obvious to me - I want 'that' sound so get the box that makes it instead of trying to recreate it! I don't mean that to sound snobby, just that for me that was the easiest way to get what I was after.

In my very very very limited experience it's reassuring for Optical (who is one of my music heros BTW) to say "I can safely say that no plugin of any kind has ever really come close to the sound of the E-6400 Ultra filters". - I couldn't agree more!
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #69
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-cytomic ➑️
Thanks for these! Can I please double check that the medium res samples were also captured from the digital output of the emu?
these were captured via analog (emu to motu 2408 mkII). rob gee's were made through the digital output. (keep in mind these weren't very rigorous recordings, and not properly gain-staged, but more just to get something up quickly. i also generally use the AD/DA of the emu, just because i've always found i like the sound of the conversion (also as mentioned by many others. but can attempt some better recordings in the next day, unless someone else gets to it first)


Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-cytomic ➑️
If this massive high frequency boost is then clipped, resampled, and done again it would definitely lead to pretty nasty sounding samples.

And there is also a fair bit of noise from the digital output including mains hum at the end of the samples:
levels were set very low to keep resonant spikes from clipping inputs. and also a good time maybe to pull out my furman and have a look!
Old 23rd September 2016
  #70
Lives for gear
 
Dom & Roland's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Andy, the top end boost makes a lot of sense... As i remember I felt that the emu would often compensate for volume loss when filtering out a sound... I was always a fan of the nasty top too, kind of what gave it bite, the crackliness of it played a major part of the sound. A Band pass sweep on the emu always seemed to sound way fuller and tonelly rich than say a bandpass on my Roland s760 or akai. Could the distortion/code workaround , if that's what it is, at the filter cutoff point be causing this and be the sound we are after?
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #71
Lives for gear
 
wavejockey's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
i think dave has been doing this his whole life :

from his website :
(From Dave’s Lab)

The ladder design, as I implemented it, has no inherent distortion for signals far below the cutoff frequency. The characteristic timbre of the filter comes primarily from distortions of frequencies near and above the cutoff frequency. The degree of distortion depends on the signal amplitude. Consequently, it is sonically interesting to modulate the signal amplitude going into the ladder, and modulate the output signal with the precise inverse gain. This is the function of the Species control. A high voltage into the Species input will go well beyond the linear region of the ladder and cause the filter to distort much more audibly.
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #72
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom & Roland ➑️
Andy, the top end boost makes a lot of sense... As i remember I felt that the emu would often compensate for volume loss when filtering out a sound... I was always a fan of the nasty top too, kind of what gave it bite, the crackliness of it played a major part of the sound. A Band pass sweep on the emu always seemed to sound way fuller and tonelly rich than say a bandpass on my Roland s760 or akai. Could the distortion/code workaround , if that's what it is, at the filter cutoff point be causing this and be the sound we are after?
alone it might look rough, but just to look at it in a bit more context: could these spikes not smooth out a bit if they were being redlined into an analog mixer, with a heavy low F1 bass note behind it to further compress the sound?
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #73
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom & Roland ➑️
Andy, the top end boost makes a lot of sense... As i remember I felt that the emu would often compensate for volume loss when filtering out a sound... I was always a fan of the nasty top too, kind of what gave it bite, the crackliness of it played a major part of the sound. A Band pass sweep on the emu always seemed to sound way fuller and tonelly rich than say a bandpass on my Roland s760 or akai. Could the distortion/code workaround , if that's what it is, at the filter cutoff point be causing this and be the sound we are after?
It looks like the top end boost only happens at high cutoff, so it is most likely a cause of the numerical properties of the filter itself. I remember seeing this sort of thing with trivial SVF type structures, I would be interested to implement one such structure and see if it produces similar high frequency boost, I think it just may. This boost disappears once you lower the cutoff with respect the sample rate, it becomes a regular sounding filter, which looks to be the case with the z-plane stuff too.

I'm not sure how much this makes a difference in what you like about the emu stuff, you'll have to tell me! I'll put together some examples soon and see if it helps.
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #74
Lives for gear
 
Dom & Roland's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by millionmiles ➑️
alone it might look rough, but just to look at it in a bit more context: could these spikes not smooth out a bit if they were being redlined into an analog mixer,with a heavy low F1 bass note behind it to further compress the sound?
Indeed, the emu's dac could be smoothing it somewhat too! That aspect could be built into the drops post distortion though if Andy goes full emu (get it), if someone lends him an old gen mackie 8 bus he could go the whole hog. Haha.
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #75
Lives for gear
 
Dom & Roland's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-cytomic ➑️
It looks like the top end boost only happens at high cutoff, so it is most likely a cause of the numerical properties of the filter itself. I remember seeing this sort of thing with trivial SVF type structures, I would be interested to implement one such structure and see if it produces similar high frequency boost, I think it just may. This boost disappears once you lower the cutoff with respect the sample rate, it becomes a regular sounding filter, which looks to be the case with the z-plane stuff too.

I'm not sure how much this makes a difference in what you like about the emu stuff, you'll have to tell me! I'll put together some examples soon and see if it helps.
Cool!
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #76
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom & Roland ➑️
Indeed, the emu's dac could be smoothing it somewhat too! That aspect could be built into the drops post distortion though if Andy goes full emu (get it), if someone lends him an old gen mackie 8 bus he could go the whole hog. Haha.
haha, might as well throw in a focusrite green eq and a tascam da-20 section! amazing thread. been waiting 18-odd yrs for this...
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #77
Lives for gear
 
Dom & Roland's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by millionmiles ➑️
haha, might as well throw in a focusrite green eq and a tascam da-20 section! amazing thread. been waiting 18-odd yrs for this...
haha yeah I still use my focusrite green just for that special 90's crunch on drums...nothing like it
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #78
JDN
Lives for gear
 
JDN's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I see a lot of mention of the E6400 Ultra here, I still have mine, though more for custom library I made over the years. Question is I'm under the impression the whole ultra series was the same software and the differences were mainly what add ons were included but that everything from the E5000 Ultra (Except that darn screen) could be expanded to the full E4XT Ultra? is that true or are there differences I'm overlooking? Was the software and the filters the same?
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #79
Lives for gear
 
wavejockey's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDN ➑️
Question is I'm under the impression the whole ultra series was the same software and the differences were mainly what add ons were included but that everything from the E5000 Ultra (Except that darn screen) could be expanded to the full E4XT Ultra? is that true or are there differences I'm overlooking? Was the software and the filters the same?
yep, the whole ULTRA (and non-ultra) had the same EOS ; software
the 'extra' upgrade to 4.6/4.7 added nothing to ULTRA samplers filter-wise
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #80
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-cytomic ➑️
Thanks for these! Can I please double check that the medium res samples were also captured from the digital output of the emu?

It's pretty clear there are major numerical problems with z-plane filters at high frequencies with even medium resonance, here is the same open filter with medium and no resonance on the same input with the low pass 4 pole filter, perhaps this plays a part of the "emu sound"?

And there is also a fair bit of noise from the digital output including mains hum at the end of the samples:

So I think we're tracking down a bit of what is going on
@ andy-cytomic this batch should be much cleaner. captured in sampler internally and exported as waves files. LP 2/4/6 pole and HP 2/4

https://mega.nz/#!ucZzWIJT!9gad02uIi...c4pwnIgsG1pj2I

Last edited by millionmiles; 23rd September 2016 at 09:03 PM..
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #81
Lives for gear
 
metrosonus's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-cytomic ➑️


Saturation plugins are another area I'm interested in, and I feel this is where the sound you like actually is from, not the filters.
Being more ambient myself, I used to make giant rigs out RCA Y adapters, tape decks, stereo EQs, AMPS, anything I could pull out of thrift stores that had an input and some sort of output and run audio through it and record it to tape.

I would absolutely have to agree that for some people, saturation IS the sound. I would love to see some sort of modeling plugin that's based around emulating 80's-90's stereo amps, equalizers, speaker vs line output etc. Should be easy enough to do, the shops are full of them..

This is just MHO, but I think for many people who reminisce about how "fat" gear they bought second hand sounded, they're actually listening to the age of the components and how they saturate the sound rather than how they sounded new, out of the box.
Old 23rd September 2016
  #82
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Thread of the decade!
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #83
Lives for gear
 
atma's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Its kind of insane to be able to talk shop with some DNB pioneers that were doing this **** when I was a teenager-people I was listening to and influenced by before I even owned a PC and knew anything about music production. Just saying...
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #84
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-cytomic ➑️
I'm not just aiming at effects but also at full polyphonic synthesis, and what I have in mind should extend anything in filterscape by a long shot.
Holy sh!t!! That just made my day sooo much better!!!
What i can remember from Z-Plane is when i was in a music store fingering what i think was X-Lead where there first was a bass sound and then after changing the filter - a pad! That still haunts me .. i wan't to go back in time and explore what it was! 20 years ago i was so clueless but now im ready to receive the divine knowledge that was hiding in that box..
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #85
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by metrosonus ➑️
This is just MHO, but I think for many people who reminisce about how "fat" gear they bought second hand sounded, they're actually listening to the age of the components and how they saturate the sound rather than how they sounded new, out of the box.
Similarly, when people compare a virtual or cloned TB303 to an original hardware one that they own and claim it doesn't sound the same...

Due to component tolerances (and as you say, aging) two original TB303s probably won't sound the same, either!
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #86
Lives for gear
 
atma's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Andy, would it be feasible to build something like the Tal sampler that could model the different nonlinearity stages of the emu adc/filter distortion/feedback/dac, and then implement the zplanes?
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #87
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atma ➑️
Andy, would it be feasible to build something like the Tal sampler that could model the different nonlinearity stages of the emu adc/filter distortion/feedback/dac, and then implement the zplanes?
That, with built in resampling capabilities would be absolutely disgusting and make waves within the dnb community
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #88
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I just want emu to comeback...
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #89
Lives for gear
 
rockreid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
It is back..the soul of it anyway:

http://www.rossum-electro.com
Old 23rd September 2016 | Show parent
  #90
Lives for gear
 
metrosonus's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickflip ➑️
Similarly, when people compare a virtual or cloned TB303 to an original hardware one that they own and claim it doesn't sound the same...

Due to component tolerances (and as you say, aging) two original TB303s probably won't sound the same, either!
Correct.. even take a mostly digital synth like the poly 800. I had about 7-8 different units. 2 or 3 of them had this huge, saturated sound. My guess? It was the aging of the components in the amp.

Many, many people have said the same thing about the mini moog, no two sound alike.
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 2268 views: 372592
Avatar for YashN
YashN 14th April 2022
replies: 276 views: 26451
Avatar for rockmanrock
rockmanrock 15th November 2012
replies: 57 views: 11292
Avatar for chrissugar
chrissugar 13th November 2016
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump