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Flutter Echo in New Studio - Cloud Advice?
Old 23rd January 2013
  #1
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flagpatch's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Flutter Echo in New Studio - Cloud Advice?

Hi guys, this is my first post, but I’ve been reading and learning from you all for quite a while now. I’m currently putting the finishing touches on a soundproof live room I built in my garage (photos below). I’m primarily going to use it for acoustic guitar and vocals.

It’s a small room, roughly 9’ x 10’ x 7’. All of the wall corners are off by a few degrees, and the only truly parallel surfaces are the floor and ceiling. The wall treatments are panels made from 2” 703 with 1.5” gap, and the corner traps are panels of 4” 703 that span the gap. I only have three corner traps as of now, as the door blocks one of the corners, though the panel on the door is 4" 703.

The room is starting to sound good, but I still get a significant flutter echo when I clap or shout. I’m guessing it’s from the untreated ceiling and floor. How would you recommend I treat the ceiling without making the room too dead? I don’t think I can afford to treat the whole ceiling. Would a few panels like the ones I have on the walls do the trick? Does it matter where I place them? Most of the cloud threads I’ve read relate to listening stations.

I should note that I’ve done no measurements on this room. I just finished construction, and don’t have any speakers in the room. Thank you for taking the time to help me out. Any other observations about the room are welcome. I want it to sound as good as possible!

IMG_4391 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

IMG_4390 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Last edited by flagpatch; 23rd January 2013 at 11:38 PM.. Reason: Photos not uploading
Old 23rd January 2013
  #2
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Some pointers:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/7237454-post133.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/7976387-post18.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8295482-post3.html (Discussing control room acoustics but the basic principles are the same).
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/7936409-post4.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...ment-help.html

So basically; I would try to minimize the use of broadband absorption and if used on early reflection points; use thick panels (say about 200 mm minimum) so you don’t just absorb the highs of the early reflections causing a skewed timbre. Use diffusers or other scattering geometry to break up later energy that you want to preserve in order to keep the room alive. Use pressure based absorbers for modal control in order to keep HF energy above the modal region.
Old 24th January 2013
  #3
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flagpatch's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Thanks for the links, Jens! You don't think my room is too small for diffusers? I thought I read that diffusers were not recommended for rooms my size. Right now, the room's not sounding dead, but the flutter echo has to go. It sounds from your post like you think I'm overusing broadband absorption?
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #4
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by flagpatch ➡️
Thanks for the links, Jens! You don't think my room is too small for diffusers? I thought I read that diffusers were not recommended for rooms my size. Right now, the room's not sounding dead, but the flutter echo has to go. It sounds from your post like you think I'm overusing broadband absorption?
Ok, your room is quite small but not necessarily too small for diffusers if used in a clever way and the right type (avoid fined diffusers since these require some distance to not sound weird).

The tricky part is keeping the energy so the room does not feel too dead sounding, but still avoid strong early reflections. If you only resort to absorption, you´ll inevitably loose the energy needed to keep the room alive (and if too thin broadband absorbers; you´ll only loose the high frequency energy thus not getting rid of the boomy low frequency feel caused by an untreated modal region).

You basically want to maximize the rooms ISD/ITD-gap as much as possible (in order to make it sound larger than it actually is) with minimum use of absorption (use geometry to redirect early energy away from the recording zone if possible) or you´ll lose the energy needed to keep the room alive. Use diffusers to terminate the ISD/ITD-gap to make the room sound "nice".

But again; your room is small so you might find that your only option is a fairly dry sounding room.
Old 24th January 2013
  #5
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by flagpatch ➡️
I still get a significant flutter echo when I clap or shout. I’m guessing it’s from the untreated ceiling and floor.
This will tell you for sure:

Flutter Echo to Distance Chart

In such a small room, I wouldn't worry about making it too dead. I'd focus on keeping it from being too live! heh Ambience in a small room generally sounds pretty lousy.

--Ethan

The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Old 24th January 2013
  #6
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flagpatch's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Thanks for the chart, Ethan! I found that the echo resonates at a Eb, which is closest to my floor to ceiling distance. Do you think that 2” 703 panels mounted on the ceiling with a 2” gap will tame the echo? If so, how much of the ceiling should I cover? Are there specific places I should mount them (over where I’ll be sitting to record), or should I just spread them evenly on the ceiling? Thanks!!
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #7
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by flagpatch ➡️
I found that the echo resonates at a Eb, which is closest to my floor to ceiling distance.
Excellent.

Quote:
Do you think that 2” 703 panels mounted on the ceiling with a 2” gap will tame the echo?
Sure.

Quote:
If so, how much of the ceiling should I cover? Are there specific places I should mount them (over where I’ll be sitting to record), or should I just spread them evenly on the ceiling?
You only need to worry about places where sounds in the room create flutter echo. If you're mixing only, then the front of the room near the speakers is important. If you also record in the area behind you, then that part of the ceiling needs to be covered too. But just because you hear flutter echo when you clap your hands doesn't necessarily mean it's a problem for sound coming from the speakers. Record some hand claps, play that in mono through both speakers, and see if that excites the echo.

All of that said, in a room so small, covering the entire ceiling will probably not be too much.

--Ethan
Old 26th January 2013
  #8
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🎧 5 years
Thanks Ethan! I just hatched a plan to make a French cleat system for the ceiling so I can adjust the position of panels after I put them up, and add and remove panels as needed without having to deal with putting extra holes in the drywall. Hopefully it will work!
Old 1st February 2013
  #9
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flagpatch's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
One last question. Would it be better to have 2" ceiling panels with a 2" gap, or 4" panels with no gap? The ceiling is quite low, so there isn't much space to work with.
Old 1st February 2013
  #10
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IamJohnGalt's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by flagpatch ➡️
Thanks Ethan! I just hatched a plan to make a French cleat system for the ceiling so I can adjust the position of panels after I put them up, and add and remove panels as needed without having to deal with putting extra holes in the drywall. Hopefully it will work!
Check out my thread to see some suggestion on ceiling panels.

Sent from my SCH-I535
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #11
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by flagpatch ➡️
Would it be better to have 2" ceiling panels with a 2" gap, or 4" panels with no gap?
The result will be similar, and 2+2 is cheaper.

--Ethan
Old 2nd February 2013 | Show parent
  #12
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer ➡️
The result will be similar, and 2+2 is cheaper.

--Ethan
Just to jump in here, I have a similar room, similar problem. Flutter (around E in my case ...)

I've put up wall panels, and treated the corners, overall, the sound is good and the response is fairly flat. Above my mix position, I've put some 4" clouds, which work well.

2"+2" is clearly a good option.

But, if we're mainly talking about mids/highs, would covering more (most?) of the ceiling with 2" or even 4" white melamine foam work? Co-eff of absorption is minimal at 125, but .28 at 250 and .6 at 500 Hz. Enough ... or a waste of time?
Old 2nd February 2013 | Show parent
  #13
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
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For mids and highs you want a material that absorbs 100 percent at 500 Hz and above. I don't think 0.6 is good enough.

--Ethan
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer ➡️
For mids and highs you want a material that absorbs 100 percent at 500 Hz and above. I don't think 0.6 is good enough.

--Ethan
OK, pretty clear.

Thanks.
Old 1st April 2013
  #15
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flagpatch's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Hey guys, I thought you might like to see how my ceiling cloud came out. It's a totally modular system. Panels can be moved about, added, or removed, just by sliding them on and off the rails I attached to the ceiling. Most importantly, my flutter echo is GONE!!

Flutter Echo in New Studio - Cloud Advice?-photo-1.jpg
Old 1st April 2013 | Show parent
  #16
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Gdupproductions's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by flagpatch ➡️
Hey guys, I thought you might like to see how my ceiling cloud came out. It's a totally modular system. Panels can be moved about, added, or removed, just by sliding them on and off the rails I attached to the ceiling. Most importantly, my flutter echo is GONE!!

Attachment 337978
Nice cloud thing up there man !!!...if i ever get bored in there which wouldn't probally happen i'd probally be rubix cubing with those panels. If you got mic stands which are logn enough ...

Btw have you covered the panels with some palstic sheets or something ?.
I'm going to build a cloud aswel but don't want dust raining upon my gear and seat
Old 1st April 2013
  #17
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flagpatch's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
No plastic, I just wrapped them in muslin. It does the trick just fine.
Old 2nd April 2013 | Show parent
  #18
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Gdupproductions's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by flagpatch ➡️
No plastic, I just wrapped them in muslin. It does the trick just fine.
Just fabric ?, aight got it ...and did the stereo image got more accurate aswel or did it just stopped flutter echos ?.

Since im fully rebuilding my sleeping room and tuning it aswel i might consider a 60mm thick panel to hang above my mixing spot spaced from the ceiling.
Old 2nd April 2013
  #19
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flagpatch's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Well, I made frames out of 1x4 radiata pine and then I wrapped the frames in muslin. I used some long screws to pin the insulation in place so gravity won't cause the muslin to sag.
Old 4th April 2013
  #20
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I have to say that is a pretty neat system you built for hanging them. Any build details you can share with the rest of GS?
Old 4th April 2013
  #21
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IamJohnGalt's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I like that system as well. I went a similiar route in that my ceiling panels can be easily moved. You can also change thier angle and distance from ceiling.

I put rows of angled metal with perforated holes on the ceiling and on the back of my panels. I connect the panel rails to the ceiling rails with monofilament that has snap swivels on each end. They were cheep to make (friend is in the fishing tackle biz) and easy to swap out to change heights.
Attached Thumbnails
Flutter Echo in New Studio - Cloud Advice?-20130403_001222.jpg   Flutter Echo in New Studio - Cloud Advice?-ceiling-bracket-mount-lazer.jpg   Flutter Echo in New Studio - Cloud Advice?-panel-back-w-bracket.jpg  
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