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Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #361
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️
Most of us "old timers" (unlike you apparently) cannot "see" sound with our naked eyes....... we actually need to be able to obtain physical data that we can then analyze..... and that data needs to come to us in a form that fits within the guidelines that the industry refers to as "reproducible".....

What that means is that we should then be able to purchase (or otherwise obtain) that exact same product - go to any (certified) testing lab; located anywhere in the world, and then be able to reproduce the same results that the company bases their claims on.

It is the lack of test data proving the company's claims here that is the problem Mctwins....... not the audience's perception of the product......

Rod
Yes, I understand what you want to see, but, I can't provide it for you, namely "test data" of SMT products. It is up to SMT if he want's to provide this or not. You guy's can't expect me to show any test data lab, there is no point in asking me.

All I can show is thru my measurements wheather one is gonna belive it or not it is up to that person to do so. I can clearly hear the differens both soundwise and measurementwise. The meaurements I am showing don't lie, one could say, it is another approch to show how it looks like from a acoustical measurement point of view in a room(call it test data lab or something else).

This is a open forum where I can share my own experiance in my own thread and I don't see any harm in that.
Old 13th January 2014
  #362
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Mctwins,

I am not suggesting there is any harm in that.......

I have said (on more than a number of occasions) that you have done a wonderful job inside of your room....... it's obviously a great room - and you have every reason to be proud of your achievements in that regard.......

However I would point out that in the process you not only show your room and share your experience - but you also suggest to others that they should follow the same path as you - and have even questioned the acoustic "qualities" of other supplier's products, questioned their ability to work effectively (this based on the figures honestly reported in their test data) in comparison to the products you are hyping - and yet we have no test data to make any comparisons with for any of the products you are pushing here in this forum.........

It's one thing to say "Look at what I have done" (and express pride in your accomplishments in the process) - it is another thing (altogether) to suggest to people that the path you took is (pretty much) the only way to make it from "A" to "B".......

I would point out that it is very strange for him not to want to present test data if his products really do work in a cost effective manner....... that makes very little sense to me.

Rod
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #363
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
Yes, I understand what you want to see, but, I can't provide it for you, namely "test data" of SMT products. It is up to SMT if he want's to provide this or not. You guy's can't expect me to show any test data lab, there is no point in asking me.
Nobody expect laboratory measurement tests from you, but if you say something what is not correlated with the behavior shown on measurement results, people will ask you for proof...

I will try to look from my own perspective:

The problem is that you provide arbitrary interpretation of well known room acoustical behavior. Giving room frequency response, room decay time, waterfall analysis is not a proof of influence of (strong?) diffuse sound field. I know that very well, mostly because I advocate strong diffuse field in the room, but I never find a better way to "measure" it than listening tests.
It is a very characteristic impression, and so called ABX test is not needed... any skilled listener had a clear impression after the test. Well, many of my clients know personally how strong diffuse field type of room sounds, and ask me for exactly that. Spreading concept information about that, following this way, is extremely slow, it is something similar as "word of mouth" type of marketing... but much less effective, because people cannot know how this sound before they personally experience it .... this experience cannot be described, and if someone tries that, the other cannot imagine about what he talks, it is impossible, if he never heard anything similar earlier... how to compare it otherwise? Strong curiosity and enthusiasm is important as personal characteristic or people won't even travel to hear it...
I honestly wrote from my own experience for nearly ten years of MyRoom Design principle development.

So, I deliberately choose a less aggressive method (only possible, IMHO) to spread a word about principle I advocate, because I strongly believe that telling "fairy tales" about the changing frequency response by only (unproved) "diffusion", may become even worse.
Here we have educated people, who wrote on this forum, but I believe that there may be even more educated and skilled, who possibly only read this, so anyone need to be responsible for his own writing. I even choose to describe my concept in AES paper, and give possibility to someone to test it even without my interference and knowledge... only to help concept expansion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
All I can show is thru my measurements wheather one is gonna belive it or not it is up to that person to do so.
It is not about believing. You describe some arbitrary behavior what is not correlated with your measurements. There is no proof for your description... (I don't want to start again about what I wrote many times in this thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
I can clearly hear the differens both soundwise and measurementwise.
I believe you! But, as I wrote above... this is for you, and only you.... If you want to "describe" someone with words how your room sounds, I advise you to use easier method... invite him to hear your room, don't try to describe something what cannot be described, especially on the forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
The meaurements I am showing don't lie, one could say, it is another approch to show how it looks like from a acoustical measurement point of view in a room(call it test data lab or something else).
I believe in your measurements, but they don't give a proof of your words (arbitrary interpretation about "what is happening")... we have many measurement results, more or less successful, that is not problematic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
This is a open forum where I can share my own experiance in my own thread and I don't see any harm in that.
[bolded by me]
I absolutely agree with you, but you also need to let others to share their experiences with yours... or this will become "one way" (sharing!?) communication, what this forum is certainly not.


cheers!


Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #364
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Sharing

The can be a lot of talk about the sound of a room and pictorial representations of how it responds to stimulus. Both a poor substitute for being there IMO. But I believe there is a way of sharing the actual experience much more accurately than the chat and reading tealeaves. Many of us here have recording equipment. Many of us could easily play back a recording on the speakers, say Jennifer Warren's Bird On a Wire, or other 'standard', and record it using a pair of mics, say in a binaural configuration.
Post the recording and anyone with access to the raw track and a pair of decent headphones can share the experience of being there.
DD
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #365
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan ➑️
The can be a lot of talk about the sound of a room and pictorial representations of how it responds to stimulus. Both a poor substitute for being there IMO. But I believe there is a way of sharing the actual experience much more accurately than the chat and reading tealeaves. Many of us here have recording equipment. Many of us could easily play back a recording on the speakers, say Jennifer Warren's Bird On a Wire, or other 'standard', and record it using a pair of mics, say in a binaural configuration.
Post the recording and anyone with access to the raw track and a pair of decent headphones can share the experience of being there.
DD
I tried that... and it won't work.
You can't record "room sound" and later experience artificial "room diffuse field" on headphones...
Internet cannot help this way... more (good old) socializing can.
Old 13th January 2014
  #366
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Dan,

Understood - and surely that would "prove a room" did not have any strange artifacts to it - it would not (however) prove a treatment component........... and that is my point......

How does a room designer take a series of stand alone products that are to be incorporated inside of a room (of differing proportions than the OP's) and determine which of these products would be beneficial to that different space, and to what extent those benefits would apply, without lab testing?

It is impossible to do strictly on the basis of information gathered in his room (or even a series of rooms.) Lab testing provides means of making side by each comparisons in order to design spaces with specific, intended results.

Rod
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #367
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Impulse Response

I would be interested to hear how or why it 'didn't work' boggy?
I must test it myself!

I would also like, heck I will, to try taking a Binaural Impulse Response pair, in say Altiverb, then using this to impose the Room (and speaker) tone via the plug in.
I have been encouraging Altiverb to get into this. Focusrite seem to be doing it already but at a low price point with their VRM box.

Understood Rod, I was just suggesting a way of communicating/sharing the 'sound' of a room, which is intrinsically more realistic/tactile than verbals or pictures.

DD
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #368
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan ➑️
I would be interested to hear how or why it 'didn't work' boggy?
some observations:
- you cannot hear anything "special" on recordings from Blackbird studio C.
- people conclude that strong diffusive room "must" sound dead, from measurement results (ambechoic), but they certainly don't sound dead (believe me or not)
- back wall placed diffusion give to listener an clear listening impression of more spacious back part of the room, you cannot record that, without surround microphone set, even if it can be audible
- you cannot fully recreate a real live performance experience of philharmonc orchestra in great sounding concert hall, with any known reproduction system.
- we practically don't have one single "microphone capsule" in each ear... we clearly can hear a front-back difference but not on headphones.

so, I personally believe that there are many reasons why we cannot "record" and "reproduce" our room "sound"
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan ➑️
I must test it myself!
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #369
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Uncanny

Hmmm. Actually I have heard the room on several Blackbird recordings, and they appeared to be just the usual fairly poor single point camera mics.
Binaural recordings, played back over good headphones give an uncanny sense of reality. Including back forward and height information if one were to believe some HiFi writers.....Anyway we are again using words when there is a much more powerful way of communication readily available.
When I get around to this audio and IR test I will post and contact you via PM.

DD
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #370
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan ➑️
.......
Including back forward and height information if one were to believe some HiFi writers.....
these particular listening informations are very connected to the loudspeakers itself... and their "offset" can't be avoided.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan ➑️
Anyway we are again using words when there is a much more powerful way of communication readily available.
When I get around to this audio and IR test I will post and contact you via PM.

DD
ok.
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #371
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan ➑️
....
When I get around to this audio and IR test I will post and contact you via PM.

DD
actually (FYI) I plan to make "video clips" of rooms designed by Zorica and me, where I will use Sony PCM-M10 location recorder mounted on DSLR camera, at listening position. This is not a best possible way to record that (pair of matched Earthworks M30 may be a better way with better recorder, I know), but this is the only practical way to have always same setup in the same configuration in different rooms, for me.

this way can be heard, at least, bass response in the room at the listening position... on headphones...

PCM-M10 Microphone specs


Attached Thumbnails
My room-image_6021.jpg   My room-son_pcmm10_characteristics.jpg  
Old 26th February 2014 | Show parent
  #372
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Gobos

Hallo!

Some pictures of the new Gobos I have build. Will ad one layer of gypsum board on the allready 16mm chipboard with some absorbtion. The depth is 300mm.

The Gobos stands at 7meters counting from the front wall, where the speakers are.

Sounds fantastic
Attached Thumbnails
My room-dsc00422.jpg   My room-dsc00423.jpg   My room-dsc00424.jpg   My room-dsc00425.jpg  
Old 9th April 2014 | Show parent
  #373
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
Hallo
I have done some changes and removed the two Varitunes from the sides and put them above my TV.



For two days ago I have measured inside and outside on the left side V4 and V6 and only used the right speakers in full range.

ALL of the V4 is tuned at around 55Hz and the two V6 is tuned at around 30Hz.

V4, the red inside the HH and the green outside, around 10cm from the port hole;



V6, the red inside the HH and the green outside, around 10cm from the port hole;



Measured at the same day at Listeningposition;







I am suprized that nobody has guess what freq I have tuned those Varitunes resonators and by using various room mode calculator despite that I have provided the layout and pictures of the room. This only proves that there are lots of experts here in this forum that really lacks the understanding how to treat the first axiall modal resonances below 100Hz and the understanding about Helmholtz resonators and phase shift phenomena. Now you all know

I am waiting for 16pc of wing-diffusors to arrive and I will provide with more measaurements.
Hallo!

I am adding two pictures how it describes how I tuned the Varitunes, so it migh be more understandable. I am showing that the mic is inside and outside the Varitunes, only showing the left side upper V4, and all of the other Varitunes the procedure is the same.

Outside


Inside


One can follow the graph of the V4 measurements in post 114.

Hope it is more clearly.
Old 18th July 2014 | Show parent
  #374
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Hallo!

Just adding Freq response as in post 182 but in 1/24 and in 1/48 oct band and Distortion. It derives from the same measurements.
Attached Thumbnails
My room-ovan-frekvens-1-24.jpg   My room-ovan-frekvens-1-48-oct-band.jpg   My room-ovan-distortion.jpg  
Old 13th August 2014 | Show parent
  #375
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Why for frequencies under 1.5kh you have level drop with 5db ?
Old 26th November 2014 | Show parent
  #376
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Room changes. In with Wings diffusors!

Hallo!

Bobecca and I have desided to do some changes in this room. We removed all slats with absorbtion and Golden Horn on left and right side(see previous pictures). GH(thicker ones) is mounted on the slanted walls.

Above V4 Varitunes will come 9 pcs of S-paper Wings on each side.

Back wall, we have removed all the absorbtion here as well and those DIY HH resonators is gone as well. Here we will put two V6 on each corners and two V4 on the floor between the door. On top of these V4 will come V-Wings in the future.

The goal for this change is to minimize the use of pouros absorbent material. The roof and the wall behind the speakers will be left as it is.

Adding some pictures....
Attached Thumbnails
My room-dsc00571.jpg   My room-dsc00572.jpg   My room-dsc00573.jpg   My room-dsc00574.jpg   My room-dsc00575.jpg  

My room-dsc00576.jpg   My room-dsc00580.jpg   My room-dsc00581.jpg  
Old 6th December 2014 | Show parent
  #377
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Hallo!

The sides are done with S-paper Wings. I have to say, Wow, fantastic sound. Now, we are just waiting for Varitunes and V-Wings for the back wall.

Attached Thumbnails
My room-dsc00584.jpg   My room-dsc00585.jpg   My room-dsc00586.jpg   My room-dsc00587.jpg  
Old 6th December 2014 | Show parent
  #378
Registered User
 
Bobecca's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I am impressed with the sound, such airynees and openees and still very controlled compared with before and that is mainly, as I see it, the removal of porous material in the room.

As soon as the devices for the back wall has arrived it will just take some minutes to install. After that there is some fine tuning and all is ready and done.

So far so good
Old 20th December 2014 | Show parent
  #379
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Hallo!

Finally, the Varitunes V4 and V6 has arrived. It looks like this. On top of the V4(smaller ones) will stand four V-Wings (height 1600mm) beside the one in the middle in front of the door.

Just waiting for the V-Wings to arrive sometime next year.

Attached Thumbnails
My room-dsc00594.jpg   My room-dsc00595.jpg   My room-dsc00596.jpg   My room-dsc00597.jpg  
Old 25th December 2014 | Show parent
  #380
Registered User
 
Bobecca's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The room turned out in the right direction

Was afraid that the turnover would mees up an already good treated room but in fact it is better now then before. I am glad that there is no need of any porous material in the room. SMT concept truly rock

Just waiting for the last treatment for the backwall.

Merry Christmas everybody......
Old 31st December 2014
  #381
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
What is the Us price on these varitunes 4 or 6 and who distributes here in the Us?
Thanks
Old 31st December 2014 | Show parent
  #382
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsantana ➑️
What is the Us price on these varitunes 4 or 6 and who distributes here in the Us?
Thanks
To be honest, I really don't know who is the distributer in the US. The best for you is to contact SMT AB and mail Matts
Old 31st December 2014
  #383
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Cool thanks!
Old 31st December 2014 | Show parent
  #384
Registered User
 
Bobecca's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Happy New Year......
Old 2nd February 2015 | Show parent
  #385
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Hallo!

Finally, the V-wings have arrived and installed. The height is 1,6 meters.

Wow, I have to say that it sounds really great. One can clearly hear the difference between nothing on the back wall and with the V-wings installed. Amazing.

SMT=
Attached Thumbnails
My room-dsc_0004.jpg   My room-dsc_0005.jpg   My room-dsc_0006.jpg   My room-dsc_0008.jpg   My room-dsc_0009.jpg  

Old 20th February 2015 | Show parent
  #386
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Hallo!

I have moved the V-wings forward instead of having it directly on the backwall. Sounds better this way
Attached Thumbnails
My room-dsc_0010.jpg  
Old 26th March 2015 | Show parent
  #387
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rsantana ➑️
What is the Us price on these varitunes 4 or 6 and who distributes here in the Us?
Thanks
Sorry missed your post Rsantana
The Us representant is Chicago Sound Proofing Construction Contractor | Soundproof Room
They recently recievd the SMT licence to manufacture and custom built the Varitune family including the new reactive absorbers V-5 and V-12 for distribution room modes down to 16 Hz
Best
Matts
Old 3rd April 2015 | Show parent
  #388
Lives for gear
 
G. E.'s Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Happy Socializing in Belgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy ➑️
... You can't record "room sound" and later experience artificial "room diffuse field" on headphones ... Internet cannot help this way ... more (good old) socializing can.
After meeting Boggy in Belgrade and hearing RES Media Studios control room I happily second that!
Attached Thumbnails
My room-_dsc2595_web.jpg  
Old 25th June 2015 | Show parent
  #389
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Hallo!

Installed some new JBL 4365 speakers in the house. Driving with Crown DCi 2/600N amp

Sounds great!!! Well, thanks to the room acoustics
Attached Thumbnails
My room-dsc_0112.jpg   My room-dsc_0116.jpg   My room-dsc_0118.jpg  
Old 9th December 2015 | Show parent
  #390
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Some changes in the room for the better!!!

Hallo!

Bobecca and I decided to make som changes in the upstairs room. In the left and right corners behind the speakers there was slat panel absorber and a thick 200mm absorber that was laying inside. Instead of this worthless design we decided to buld HH resonators instead. One can see in previous post how it lookt liked.

We coverd the front with MDF board and drilled some holes and put plastic port, same plastic port that is used in tuning a bass loudspeaker box. The total volume is 600 liters/corner.

We tuned in the right corner and driving the left loudspeaker and in increments drilling one hole at a time and the mic inside the box to see where the maximum preasure would be. We came up to between 4-5 holes where the 4 holes is the highest peak. We did plug the last port, port 5.

We have to say the outcome is much, much better than the slat panel absorber we had before. Much more thighter and punchier bass response and even better and cleaner sound from mid and high freq.

Attached Thumbnails
My room-dsc_0316.jpg   My room-dsc_0315.jpg   My room-dsc_0352.jpg   My room-dsc_0355.jpg  
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