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Old 29th December 2013 | Show parent
  #331
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Bobecca's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Rod, are you really that busy? You really have the time to pollute this threadwith your personal and commercial noncence!

Still, as long you dont provide with measurements, all of your post is irrelevant.

Old 29th December 2013 | Show parent
  #332
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
Local...

Can be seen here as well, Flowers on the floor. It begins from 200Hz.

https://gearspace.com/board/9455764-post167.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
These measurements presented here is with the Flowerwings on the floor, with and without. All other treatment in the room is still the same. And, this goes for both rooms.

So, yes. it goes down to 200Hz.....with FlowerWings.

neither of which satisfy the claim of your statement that:
https://gearspace.com/board/9680741-post185.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by McTwins
Here is two exemple of CSD graphs that shows the diffusion in time(=temporal diffusion) down to 200Hz with and without Wings in upstairs room. Exactly as described in the SMT's brochure.
Old 29th December 2013 | Show parent
  #333
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobecca ➑️
Rod, are you really that busy? You really have the time to pollute this threadwith your personal and commercial noncence!

Still, as long you dont provide with measurements, all of your post is irrelevant.

Yup - I am "really that busy"..... I'm currently designing 5 studio projects - have a client (not studio related) that has some HVAC issues I'm consulting on, have to make a field trip to a client on the 1st regarding design concepts for his studio (yet to begin design on this) am working "lettering" phase 1 for a studio design in between posting here - and have a whole slew of clients (contractors/developers) that I consult with on a regular basis.........

In the midst of that I also find the time to visit here and help folks.... whether that help is in the form of direct advice or staving off ignorance based on unfounded claims by companies who offer "the holy grail of room treatments".

I multi-task quite well indeed.......

You (apparently) don't have the capacity to understand the difference between a service and product...... so I won't waste my time worrying about your opinion regarding the relevancy of my posts.......

As I said - if I ever start selling products - they will come with tests to back them up....... and outside of that I only have to satisfy the clients I choose to work with....... and none of them are complaining......


As far as your statement to my "polluting" this thread with my personal and commercial "nonsense" goes, you (specifically) requested information on my work when you said"

Quote:
I have to ask, what work have you been doing? You are not showing anything.
Why did you ask if you did not want me to show you?

Rod
Old 29th December 2013 | Show parent
  #334
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobecca ➑️
.......You really have the time to pollute this thread........

This is not true.
You (Bobecca, McTwins, diffusor.com) pollute your own thread/product with your ignorance.


Old 29th December 2013 | Show parent
  #335
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobecca ➑️
Rod, are you really that busy? You really have the time to pollute this threadwith your personal and commercial noncence!

Still, as long you dont provide with measurements, all of your post is irrelevant.

The ignorance is breathtaking.

Do you guys think that all the proffesionals here don't know what they are talking about?
And somehow you have cracked a secret code or something like that?

You guys are worse than the guy claiming oc 705 is always better then oc 703 based on how they sound when he screams at them
Is he also in your club
Old 29th December 2013 | Show parent
  #336
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy ➑️
+1
Simple absorption panel placed on the floor is a way to gather these results, if these measurement results are the goal (!)

The existence of an additional diffuse field in the room, cannot be proven by measuring/analyzing reverberation, impulse response, frequency response or waterfall analysis...

This way was proven only that reflection was absorbed (in one way or another)... And to build absorber which works down to 200Hz is not a rocket science....

(it is already known tale about apples and oranges)


There is no absorber in the FlowerWings, it creates S-field in just in front of the wings. As SMT explains it, in the Concept.

Just look here and look at the colour changes in time!

CATT simulation time trays - YouTube

compare to this

Sound Diffusers (Fractals) - YouTube

Is it this you guy's mean about lobing??

I can't see any lobing in the wings in the simulation.
Old 29th December 2013 | Show parent
  #337
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️


There is no absorber in the FlowerWings.........
The shown effect is same as absorbing...
If you like to show "some special working effect" of your device, you need to try a different way, a different measurement/analysis. This way you show only effect of absorption down to 200Hz... And SAME results can be done with a piece of rockwool placed at point of floor reflection, so there is nothing "special" that we have not already seen before... Your device did nothing "revolutionary" in other words (EDIT: while looking at the measurement results)
Old 29th December 2013 | Show parent
  #338
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Please stop mctwin, I beg you!
It just looks so ridiculousness when you facepalm someone who actually knows what they are talking about!!!
Show some humility and try to learn something..
Old 29th December 2013
  #339
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
A paper flower device that absorbs at 200hz and also does magical style diffusion?

This thread really needs popcorn!
Old 29th December 2013 | Show parent
  #340
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️


There is no absorber in the FlowerWings, it creates S-field in just in front of the wings. As SMT explains it, in the Concept.
there is no "absorber" in blackbird studio C yet the highly reflective diffusers attenuate the ingress signal by -30dB. just because a device isn't designed or marketed as an "absorber" does not imply that the device will not impart absorptive characteristics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
Just look here and look at the colour changes in time!

CATT simulation time trays - YouTube
has the manufacturer produced any real world measurements to identify the actual polar responses across the usual criteria?
Old 30th December 2013
  #341
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think this thread is about 3 posts, 1 report and half a facepalm away from being locked.

Please try to respect each other even if you disagree, please try to read and respond to the POINT made and not go after the poster with accusations of ignorance, and please try to avoid accusing each other of "commercial" posting , especially when there's no evidence to back this up!

I'm not going to waste my time going through and removing specific posts, even when politely "ordered" to by some of the participants (which I take a dim view of btw - the mods decide what goes or stays! Please if reporting a post, don't instruct us to remove something...we'll make that decision). Just take this as a final warning please.
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #342
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➑️
I think this thread is about 3 posts, 1 report and half a facepalm away from being locked.

Please try to respect each other even if you disagree, please try to read and respond to the POINT made and not go after the poster with accusations of ignorance, and please try to avoid accusing each other of "commercial" posting , especially when there's no evidence to back this up!

I'm not going to waste my time going through and removing specific posts, even when politely "ordered" to by some of the participants (which I take a dim view of btw - the mods decide what goes or stays! Please if reporting a post, don't instruct us to remove something...we'll make that decision). Just take this as a final warning please.
It is hard though when there are almost religious beliefs..
One can never stand for lies though.
But that IS beeing served...
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #343
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 ➑️
there is no "absorber" in blackbird studio C yet the highly reflective diffusers attenuate the ingress signal by -30dB. just because a device isn't designed or marketed as an "absorber" does not imply that the device will not impart absorptive characteristics.
How do you want me to answer this question, First, I don't know how the measurement has been done, what signal exitaction is use or placement of the mic and speaker. They are only showing ETC, where is freq response, slices energy decay graphs, waterfall graphs and so on.
Sorry, I can't give you any good answer here.

All I can show is thru my measurement posted in this thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127;9712905
has the manufacturer produced any [U
real[/U] world measurements to identify the actual polar responses across the usual criteria?
Not that I know of.
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #344
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Please guy's, stay on topic. Shall we

It is little bit difficult to answer question if off topic post comes in all the time.

Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #345
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Here is a impulse response, same as in post 168 and comes from the same file, where I have magnified the graph to see it a little better.

Look between the marker and curser, it is about 4,6ms, with Flower on the floor it seems to strech out in time compare to without Flower.

And NO, there is no absorber in the Flowerwing. This Flower is made of wood not paper.

Green...with Flower
Red......without Flower

Added two more pictures, maybe the changes can be seen a little better.
Attached Thumbnails
My room-prx600impulseresponseflower.jpg   My room-prx600withflower.jpg   My room-prx600withoutflower.jpg  
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #346
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Here is Burst Decay from the same file, this is the downstairs room. All the measurement is with both speakers and mic at the LP

Something is happening around 200Hz and the reflection is gone between 2000-20000Hz. Seems to split up the reflection in time and it is broadbanded as well.

According to ARTA's burst decay, if you have a curved line, it is a reflection, straight line is a resonance. This can be read in ARTA's manual.

Don't know what to say anymore.
Attached Thumbnails
My room-prx600waterfallfwithflower.jpg   My room-prx600waterfallfwithoutflower.jpg   My room-prx600bdwithflowers.jpg   My room-prx600bdwithoutflowers.jpg  
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #347
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
Here is a impulse response, same as in post 168 and comes from the same file, where I have magnified the graph to see it a little better.

Look between the marker and curser, it is about 4,6ms, with Flower on the floor it seems to strech out in time compare to without Flower.

And NO, there is no absorber in the Flowerwing. This Flower is made of wood not paper.

Green...with Flower
Red......without Flower
Wood diffusors have definitely notable amounts of absorption - and if you put something that has channels that are multiple feet long, of course there will be a lot of absorption. When the sound enters the Flower modules, it will reflect a significant amount inside the device, leading to dissipation of energy of the direct signal. You can even see in the ARTA Burst Decay that there is significantly less energy (in decibels) as time goes on with the Flower Wings installed. I also don't see the "stretching" you claim is in the ETC, I just see a removed reflection - again, just like a ramp sending the reflection elsewhere would do (or an absorber). Your results only show that you were successful in placing the Flowers correctly (not that I would have doubted that ability), and have shown that they attenuate signal (no one has doubted this). But they don't look to attenuate signal in any special way that other means can't, and it certainly does not in any way imply that diffusion is going on. Again, SMT doesn't even suggest that these diffuse and doesn't call them diffusors, and doesn't say anything about diffusion in the concept either - what makes you suggest otherwise? In fact, in your quote from him from the other forum, he has suggested that the "optimum diffusion coefficient has been replaced by..." - so there's no use in calling it a diffusor.
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #348
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasmira ➑️
Wood diffusors have definitely notable amounts of absorption - and if you put something that has channels that are multiple feet long, of course there will be a lot of absorption. When the sound enters the Flower modules, it will reflect a significant amount inside the device, leading to dissipation of energy of the direct signal. You can even see in the ARTA Burst Decay that there is significantly less energy (in decibels) as time goes on with the Flower Wings installed. I also don't see the "stretching" you claim is in the ETC, I just see a removed reflection - again, just like a ramp sending the reflection elsewhere would do (or an absorber). Your results only show that you were successful in placing the Flowers correctly (not that I would have doubted that ability), and have shown that they attenuate signal (no one has doubted this). But they don't look to attenuate signal in any special way that other means can't, and it certainly does not in any way imply that diffusion is going on. Again, SMT doesn't even suggest that these diffuse and doesn't call them diffusors, and doesn't say anything about diffusion in the concept either - what makes you suggest otherwise? In fact, in your quote from him from the other forum, he has suggested that the "optimum diffusion coefficient has been replaced by..." - so there's no use in calling it a diffusor.
If you look at the freq response from the same file before and after there is no level drop in dB. You can see that it is streching the reponse with the Flowers. Look at the top level on Burst Decay.



Maybe I am using the wrong words regarding diffuser, but I don't know what to call them. From now on, I will call them Wing Modules.

The result is temporal diffusion in the nearfield as can been seen in the CATT

Last edited by Mctwins; 30th December 2013 at 10:42 AM.. Reason: Change the picture
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #349
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
If you look at the freq response from the same file before and after there is no level drop in dB. You can see that it is streching the reponse with the Flowers. Look at the top level on Burst Decay.
.......
Absorption at boundary (EDIT: floor in your case) doesn't directly cause "drop in dB" in frequency response, but partial absence of the boundary reflection (EDIT: from floor in your case) pressure vector summed with direct pressure vector from speakers at listening position, what you have shown exactly in your frequency response measurements
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #350
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Here are a couple of illustrations from Mr. Siegfried Linkwitz site (LinkwitzLab):






EDIT: This is theoretical (ideally) hemi-anechoic response, simplified, and not that complex as in the room...

Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #351
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins ➑️
If you look at the freq response from the same file before and after there is no level drop in dB. You can see that it is streching the reponse with the Flowers. Look at the top level on Burst Decay.

https://gearspace.com/board/9455764-post167.html
That is actually not what I said. I didn't say there was a drop in dB in the frequency response. I said there is a loss of energy as time goes on, as witnessed in your Burst Decay where the decay is clearly more damped with the Flowers than without. Again, redirecting reflections or absorbing them would show similar characteristics (pure absorption would obviously give more damping). I'd make a guess that the absorption characteristics of this device would be significant due to the lengthy chambers that have multiple angles. The sound will undergo a slew of boundary reflections inside the device that will no doubt dissipate energy.

It's easy to see where the concept comes from. Diffusion is preferred by a lot of people, but diffusing at first reflection points usually still gives too many high gain reflections within whatever set window of time. So, instead, you want to build a diffusor that "holds" this energy for a few extra ms before diffusing it. Thus, you build a diffusor with large chambers that takes the sound a few ms to leave. However, again I'd suggest this concept is almost identical to absorption in nature and in result due to viscous losses of boundary reflections inside the device. Moreover, the results can certainly be achieved otherwise while actually retaining more energy (by redirecting the sound to be later diffused).

I would further postulate for discussion (as I have no idea what I'm talking about in this next paragraph to be honest) that redistributing early energy spread out in dB within the same early window, even if not high gain, perhaps might not be particularly helpful. What would the goal of that be? Would this not violate physical cues? With a Haas kicker, you "receive" the stimuli that was redirected at a later time outside the window. This later arriving energy is so complex and mixed that it can be perceived as ambiance and give way to way less severe comb filtering, etc. But getting those complex mixed signals within the early reflection window? I'm not so sure if that would be helpful. But I have no idea why I feel that way - I'm open to be persuaded. I feel like that would minimize dynamics, which I could see as being damaging. But perhaps I've got that entirely backwards, and removing early energy within the early window violates physical cues, and so introducing energy that is more mixed and spread out but still within the early window can help to keep those cues in place while not creating as serious of phase-related problems. In either case I don't think the Wings have shown proper data to suggest that is what they are achieving.

McTwins, could you post your FR between the two with less smoothing? Maybe 1/12 or 1/24 (or none) so more data could be gathered about what comb filtering was removed or if it was shifted in frequency (or both)? Again, I'm not suggesting your results aren't good. I just seriously doubt it's due to diffusion and I also doubt that it wouldn't be achievable by other means (and FWIW I don't think you would necessarily disagree with that either).
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #352
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kasmira ➑️
That is actually not what I said. I didn't say there was a drop in dB in the frequency response. I said there is a loss of energy as time goes on, as witnessed in your Burst Decay where the decay is clearly more damped with the Flowers than without. Again, redirecting reflections or absorbing them would show similar characteristics (pure absorption would obviously give more damping). I'd make a guess that the absorption characteristics of this device would be significant due to the lengthy chambers that have multiple angles. The sound will undergo a slew of boundary reflections inside the device that will no doubt dissipate energy.

It's easy to see where the concept comes from. Diffusion is preferred by a lot of people, but diffusing at first reflection points usually still gives too many high gain reflections within whatever set window of time. So, instead, you want to build a diffusor that "holds" this energy for a few extra ms before diffusing it. Thus, you build a diffusor with large chambers that takes the sound a few ms to leave. However, again I'd suggest this concept is almost identical to absorption in nature and in result due to viscous losses of boundary reflections inside the device. Moreover, the results can certainly be achieved otherwise while actually retaining more energy (by redirecting the sound to be later diffused).

I would further postulate for discussion (as I have no idea what I'm talking about in this next paragraph to be honest) that redistributing early energy spread out in dB within the same early window, even if not high gain, perhaps might not be particularly helpful. What would the goal of that be? Would this not violate physical cues? With a Haas kicker, you "receive" the stimuli that was redirected at a later time outside the window. This later arriving energy is so complex and mixed that it can be perceived as ambiance and give way to way less severe comb filtering, etc. But getting those complex mixed signals within the early reflection window? I'm not so sure if that would be helpful. But I have no idea why I feel that way - I'm open to be persuaded. I feel like that would minimize dynamics, which I could see as being damaging. But perhaps I've got that entirely backwards, and removing early energy within the early window violates physical cues, and so introducing energy that is more mixed and spread out but still within the early window can help to keep those cues in place while not creating as serious of phase-related problems. In either case I don't think the Wings have shown proper data to suggest that is what they are achieving.

McTwins, could you post your FR between the two with less smoothing? Maybe 1/12 or 1/24 (or none) so more data could be gathered about what comb filtering was removed or if it was shifted in frequency (or both)? Again, I'm not suggesting your results aren't good. I just seriously doubt it's due to diffusion and I also doubt that it wouldn't be achievable by other means (and FWIW I don't think you would necessarily disagree with that either).
Ok, I understand what you are trying to say but I have also difficult to explain it in english languge what is really going on here. To me, I hear more dynamic and detail in music with the Flower on the floor compared to without, and this corresponds very well if looking at CATT simulation. Absorbtion in the delaylines channels seems to be very small contra efficiency.

Nevertheless, I have send these two measurements to SMT for evaluation and he will respond back in soon time and explain what is really happening in my measurements, with and without Flowerwings on the floor. This will be on the downstairs room.

In the mean time, I can show you the 1/24oct in ARTA from the same file.
Attached Thumbnails
My room-prx600124withoutflower.jpg   My room-prx600124withflower.jpg  
Old 31st December 2013 | Show parent
  #353
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Bobecca's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Happy New Year, everybody
Old 31st December 2013
  #354
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
And the same back at you and yours Bobecca....... I wish you a great one..... and the rest of the folks here as well.

Rod
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #355
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Bobecca's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodittydada ➑️
A paper flower device
Some correction is in place here.....

The flower wing is not made of paper. Just want to point this out!
Old 13th January 2014
  #356
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
daaaaaaaaang
Old 13th January 2014
  #357
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
After so much discussion and explanation (not only this thread), measurements of no relevance to the topic are still being presented as "proof".
The ignorance and lack of humilty to want to learn is breathtaking.
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #358
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
It's breathtaking that the oldtimers don't see how the Flower wing time delay lines works broadbanded in the nearfield and transform the combfilter to dense reflections that shape up the frequency response. Exactly as Jamie Angus describe the diffused critical listening room in her book.
Old 13th January 2014
  #359
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Most of us "old timers" (unlike you apparently) cannot "see" sound with our naked eyes....... we actually need to be able to obtain physical data that we can then analyze..... and that data needs to come to us in a form that fits within the guidelines that the industry refers to as "reproducible".....

What that means is that we should then be able to purchase (or otherwise obtain) that exact same product - go to any (certified) testing lab; located anywhere in the world, and then be able to reproduce the same results that the company bases their claims on.

It is the lack of test data proving the company's claims here that is the problem Mctwins....... not the audience's perception of the product......

Rod
Old 13th January 2014 | Show parent
  #360
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️
Most of us "old timers" (unlike you apparently) cannot "see" sound with our naked eyes.......
My room-sm.jpg

πŸ“ Reply

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