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My side panels don't make that much difference - too dense?
Old 25th November 2009
  #1
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
My side panels don't make that much difference - too dense?

Hi

A couple of months ago i built 2 of the absorbers using ikea frames like in the shaman thread sticky'd at the top (i posted a pic in that thread). I used some dense fibreglass from wickes (UK),it's about 1.5-2inches per slab, and they're placed either side of my head at the monitoring position, between me and the speaker (although i sit quite close).

Is it possible that this dense material might be great for bass trapping, but not so amazing for absorbing the highs?

I should point out that they have the cardboard backs on them, but not placed flush against the wall.

I don't feel like they're really doing what i 'wanted'. One on side i have a double glazed window, and a glass markerboard on the other, so it was a nightmare before. Because of this, i was expecting a shocking difference, but i did not get one. Stereo imaging improved though.

Are these traps not 'right' for the purpose i'm using them for? I didn't get the other (cheaper) fibreglass, because it looked too soft and would be 'saggy', and i just wanted to buy the 'best'.

Any advice, or is it fine as it is?

Cheers
Old 25th November 2009
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Because of this, i was expecting a shocking difference, but i did not get one. Stereo imaging improved though.
Well it sounds like they are working if the Stereo imaging has improved. I will say you only did 2 3rds of the reflection points. The ceiling is pretty important. I would cover a 4'x4' area up there.
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for your reply Glen. Unfortunately i don't think that's possible, for two reasons. Firstly there's a neon tube thing above me, and secondly is that it's not really my place. It's what was the office for the label, but as i failed to find a commercial space for my studio, i've had to move stuff in here to mix and do vocal tracking and basic stuff, and the instruments etc are in storage.

The plaster/plaster board on the roof would also suffer in trying to hang something that'd be quite heavy (a 4x4' trap with frame), also, and already what i've done is quite intrusive (i.e. i've completely taken it over), so i don't want to cause any permanent/serious damage.

I've just taken some pictures right now, as is, so no dark lighting or tricks to make it tider or look better... and i'm a bit wary of putting pictures on the internet, but anyway:

Index of /beatsmithstudio

Behind the monitors are two GIK 244's. You can see the panels either side of mix position, just propped against the window/on top of my makeshift rack.

The back wall (not pictured) has a ton of vinyl against it (stacked in one of those huge ikea shelves, completely covering the back wall), and in the back right corner there is half a factory's worth of fiberglass. All the other slabs that i didn't use for making any panels (about 6-8inches worth in thickness, slabs are 2x4'), and an actual 4inch 2 x 4' basstrap which i am not using. The back left corner has the big vinyl shelf pushed into it so i cannot basstrap that corner. The door is there also. When recording vox i use a reflexion filter and also cover the vinyl wall with a thick duvet. The ceiling is at the back is the weak spot in terms of reflections for vocals, but i digress.

I can go to ikea and buy these for just a couple of points each: IKEA | Frames & pictures | Mounting accessories | TYGLÖSA | Frame

They are roughly 20 inches square, and pop in my spare fiberglass. I was planning to do this above the vocal area - 2 x 20inch panels side by side against each other, covered in fabric.

If i could find a way to fix these to the roof without fear of them falling on my head (and more importantly, on my gear) I could probably put two of these side by side above my mix position. Would that be worth it, or would it have to cover more space for it to be of much worth?

Also, does anyone know of a cool way i could affix these to the ceiling without causing a lot of damage? heh

Finally, is the glass window in front of mix position an issue?

Thanks for any advice you guys could give, having seen the room.

Eddie
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
If i could find a way to fix these to the roof without fear of them falling on my head (and more importantly, on my gear) I could probably put two of these side by side above my mix position. Would that be worth it, or would it have to cover more space for it to be of much worth?
It would help.

Do me a favor, just for the fun of it. Take those 2 panels and put them on the side wall right where the speaker is. I wonder if you might be having a bigger SBIR problem, which could be bugging you and you just don't know it. If it seems to help then build 2 more and put those in the early reflection points.
NOTE:I am only guessing bit here but still would like to see something on the ceiling.
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
what is an SBIR problem? not sure what SBIR is heh

do you basically mean take the two panels and put them on the same side? right of left (facing the monitor)?

cheers!
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
"SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response) - This is a term to describe how the proximity of a speaker to a hard boundary (wall/ceiling/floor) will change the response, especially in the low end. This is something that not a lot of people understand nor consider when planning a room."

got it!
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Also i should point out that my Adams are arranged so that the bass woofers are on the 'outside'...
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Beatsmith ➡️
"SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response) - This is a term to describe how the proximity of a speaker to a hard boundary (wall/ceiling/floor) will change the response, especially in the low end. This is something that not a lot of people understand nor consider when planning a room."

got it!
Yep, sorry I should have posted the link.
Learn what is SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response).
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i arranged them like this:

http://www.roughproductions.co.uk/be...tudio/pic8.jpg (ouch my poor mpc)
http://www.roughproductions.co.uk/be...tudio/pic9.jpg

it did help out, but it's subtle and confusing. in fact when i take the panels away completely it sounds more 'open' and maybe a little 'nicer', if a little empty, but i guess i want what is more accurate. and these adjectives mean different things to different people.

i will try to build more, i already have the fiberglass, but hanging them is an issue. the reason i haven't made more or bought any more GIK panels (for example!) is because i would have to hang them which means drilling into/damaging the walls.

any more advice from glenn or anyone - on anything - would be great. i'm very frustrated in this room, but i guess i should count myself lucky that i have anywhere at all.

just as an aside, here are the pics of the back of the room. as mentioned, when there's vocal tracking, the entire vinyl shelf is covered with a duvet which is hung from above it (trapped under the crap on top of it).

http://www.roughproductions.co.uk/be...udio/pic10.jpg
http://www.roughproductions.co.uk/be...udio/pic11.jpg
http://www.roughproductions.co.uk/be...udio/pic12.jpg

thanks
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
it did help out, but it's subtle and confusing.
As soon as I posted that I had a feeling you where going to say that. For panels for SBIR you really want them to be 4" as it will reach lower, but needless to say you should hear a difference with even 2".
One more little experiment before I tell you to look to the ceiling (which I still say will help) is leave the panels by the speaks and get some HEAVY blankets for the early reflection points. I don't mean to put you through this but I know you don't have a ton of space so trying to pick through the problems.
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
just as an aside, here are the pics of the back of the room. as mentioned, when there's vocal tracking, the entire vinyl shelf is covered with a duvet which is hung from above it (trapped under the crap on top of it).
You need so THICK absorption for that back wall. I can say for sure you are getting nasty nulls and peaks from that area. I know you did not want to hear that.
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
the back right corner (well, left in the picutre) where you can see a bass trap on the floor - that is very well bass trapped. as in, there's a 4inch basstrap there in a frame, then about 6 inches of dense fiberglass behind it.

but the back wall itself... unfortunately there's absolutely f-all i can do about it. i can't move that shelf or ask for anything to change there really. i guess it doesn't make a really great diffusor then, eh?

i think the solution might have to be - get a full time day job, move out of where i'm living and get somewhere bigger/of my own...

cheers mate
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Beatsmith ➡️

i think the solution might have to be - get a full time day job, move out of where i'm living and get somewhere bigger/of my own...

cheers mate

I guess a new space will be in order in they future, but I bet you room sounds better then most bigger rooms with no treatment at all.
Old 1st December 2009
  #14
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks glenn thumbsup

Still, do you think perhaps i messed up and should have used less dense material for the side reflection panels? The stuff i have is linked here and is quite dense (you can't easily condense/crush it): Wickes  – Insulation – Constructional Insulation – Constructional Insulation – Heavy Density Insulation - it is not the 45kg per m3 type.

The annoying thing is that it's really easy to work with, and i can easily go and buy cheap little $5 20"'x20" frames and dot them around the room (which was my original plan to use up the left over insulation, of which there is quite a lot). However if this is too dense a material and is better suited for bass trapping, perhaps that is a bad idea?

Also i should add that the panels that i built for the side reflection points also have the cardboard 'backs' of the frames on, holding the insulation in place.

When i have some cash, i will definitely get 3 x 242 panels (£150), and have them either side and above. Then perhaps move these elsewhere around the/a future room.

Also, does anyone have any tips for mounting a trap on the ceiling with the minimum of fuss?
Old 1st December 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
No I still think they are fine. To test them stand about 1 foot from them and talk into the panel, if you can't hear your voice reflect back to you then they are fine.

BTW the cardboard is not ideal if you are trying to absorb lower mids and lows, so if you ever make bass traps DO NOT put cardboard on the backs.
Old 1st December 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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The Beatsmith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks glenn

Re: the card at the back - i think i did ask at the time and the general consensus was that this was OK for side panels for the reflection points.

Thanks again.
Old 1st December 2009 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Beatsmith ➡️
Thanks glenn

Re: the card at the back - i think i did ask at the time and the general consensus was that this was OK for side panels for the reflection points.

Thanks again.
It is ok, but if you want to hit the lower mids (vocal range) you really want a space behind them. Part of the reason we build a space in the back of the 242. . But needless to say it will work with a hard back, but just not as well. BTW I don't think that is what your problem is so don't do ripping off the back.
Old 3rd December 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras ➡️
It is ok, but if you want to hit the lower mids (vocal range) you really want a space behind them. Part of the reason we build a space in the back of the 242. . But needless to say it will work with a hard back, but just not as well. BTW I don't think that is what your problem is so don't do ripping off the back.
Cool... sorry to highjack the thread.. what about 4" panels on first reflection points? Wouldn't that take care of some bass, or would it distort the frequency curve even more?
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