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What is the state of MIDI controllers in Pro Tools?
Old 26th May 2020
  #1
What is the state of MIDI controllers in Pro Tools?

Pretty sucky?

1. Many plugins do not have MIDI Learn capabilities but DO offer parameter automation. Is there a way to assign a MIDI controller to control the parameter or automation lane? (Guessing no) (if not why the hell not?)

2. Can I use a MIDI controller to control track faders, pans, mutes, etc.? (Guessing no) (if not why the hell not?)

3. If no to the above, how does a $1200 S1 surface control perform on MIDI?

4. If the S1 sucks at MIDI are we stuck finding some keyboard that implements HUI, Command8 or the other modes set in the Peripherals tab of the settings menu? How would this help us?

I often want to use my MIDI keyboard as a control surface -- is Avid trying to lock us into expensive proprietary EUCON surfaces instead? I often use real time mechanics to automate performance data (it's more creative than a click and a mouse). How can I perform more automation when many plugins don't offer MIDI learn?
Old 30th May 2020
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Wizzomixer's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
The S1 uses Eucon, as do all the Avid controllers. There are plenty of non Avid controllers that use the HUI protocol which runs over midi, but I know of no controller keyboards that support it. I still use my faithful Mackie HUI which was designed for Pro Tools back in the days of version 4.5. It still works today in my current version which is 2018.3. There are HUI controllers available from Mackie, Presonus, and Icon for example.
One of the plus points of the original Mackie HUI is its dedicated plug-in section.
Attached Thumbnails
What is the state of MIDI controllers in Pro Tools?-06a.jpg  
Old 31st May 2020
  #3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
It sounds like what you're looking for is something like the control link function in studio one, but in PT. Unfortunately you won't find that in PT.

The closest to that is Command 8, C24, Dcommand, Icon. Because they had custom plugin mappings. Best bang for the buck is a C8.

To your point number 3, the way that eucontrol works is all proprietary. You can control plugins, but you cannot make custom assignments- meaning that plugins that have many parameters spill over many pages. On an artist mix, you can control only 8 parameters at a time and then page through. On an S3 only 16 at a time. Some people still find this useful, I don't.

Yes, avid is trying to make you buy a eucontrol surface. And with the lack of custom mapping, it likely won't work that well for you anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowplaysmusic ➡️
How can I perform more automation when many plugins don't offer MIDI learn?
Switch to Stuido One, or Ableton. S1's implementation is awesome IMO, you can custom map anything in the daw to any number of controllers. You can map on a per song basis, or you can map across all songs- Also all of it gets handled on the 10 bit res engine as opposed to the midi CC 7 bit engine. Your midi knobs are still 7 bit, but editing is 10, and any MCU/HUI devices etc are also 10 bit.
Old 31st May 2020
  #4
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Just so you know; the Command 8 is midi and is working just fine with the latest 2020 PT. I don't know much about midi learn on plugins, I guess this is much up to the plugin programmers. But even tho it's now like 13 yrs old technology, I find it still very useful, and you can get one used for almost free.
Old 1st June 2020 | Show parent
  #5
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Wizzomixer's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Beat you. My HUI is 23 years old.
Old 1st June 2020 | Show parent
  #6
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzomixer ➡️
Beat you. My HUI is 23 years old.


Your Mackie I expect, is just fine.
Thing about the Command 8, even tho it works with any DAW, is that it was designed for Pro Tools and provides a smooth integration, still.
Old 1st June 2020 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Jenssen ➡️
Just so you know; the Command 8 is midi and is working just fine with the latest 2020 PT. I don't know much about midi learn on plugins, I guess this is much up to the plugin programmers. But even tho it's now like 13 yrs old technology, I find it still very useful, and you can get one used for almost free.
It's a great feature of the Command 8, and one that Eucontrol controllers don't have-

Old 29th July 2020
  #8
Gear Nut
 
BarryLimestone's Avatar
I had been wondering if there is a way of controlling plugin paramaters in Pro Tools as well. The way I got around some issues is by using Controllermate software (currently not supported on Catalina, I don't know if it will ever be updated). I emailed the guy who created it but never got a reply. The buy option on the website was actually missing last time I checked, seeing he probably doesn't want trouble from people buying it and it not working on a newer OS. I tried many ways of getting in touch, even offering others to pay to use their license (seeing I run Mojave),but never got a reply. The free version is limited to only a few blocks.

Eventually I found an old dodgy youtube video with a serial number/activation code in the description that actually worked! I tried everything to contact and pay for it, so I don't think I did anything wrong, just found that video. Small developers especially should be paid of course.

You can download the trial version from the website still, so that's how I got it in the first place.

It doesn't actually really use midi (it can send midi but this still wouldn't work with using Pro Tools) but instead macro key and mouse commands. You can use screenshots and coordinates to assign paramaters etc. Pro Tools will think it's your mouse. It's really easy to use. If you google controllermate pro tools some videos will pop up. Good luck!
Old 29th July 2020 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
It's a great feature of the Command 8, and one that Eucontrol controllers don't have-

Thanks.
I don't think I read your reply to my post in june, that I never got a email notification, or I might have been drunk.
Anyway, as you might have guessed, I don't use my C8 in very sophisticated ways, being retired, but this video tickles me a bit. So, thanks.
Old 30th July 2020 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryLimestone ➡️
I had been wondering if there is a way of controlling plugin paramaters in Pro Tools as well. The way I got around some issues is by using Controllermate software (currently not supported on Catalina, I don't know if it will ever be updated). I emailed the guy who created it but never got a reply. The buy option on the website was actually missing last time I checked, seeing he probably doesn't want trouble from people buying it and it not working on a newer OS. I tried many ways of getting in touch, even offering others to pay to use their license (seeing I run Mojave),but never got a reply. The free version is limited to only a few blocks.

Eventually I found an old dodgy youtube video with a serial number/activation code in the description that actually worked! I tried everything to contact and pay for it, so I don't think I did anything wrong, just found that video. Small developers especially should be paid of course.

You can download the trial version from the website still, so that's how I got it in the first place.

It doesn't actually really use midi (it can send midi but this still wouldn't work with using Pro Tools) but instead macro key and mouse commands. You can use screenshots and coordinates to assign paramaters etc. Pro Tools will think it's your mouse. It's really easy to use. If you google controllermate pro tools some videos will pop up. Good luck!
WOW. Thanks. I never heard about Controllermate.
Reminds me of Reaktor and Turbosynth, though they were software synths of course, it looks similar in its fuction to customize controller buttons/keys.

Here's a pretty comprehensive video:
https://youtu.be/hkUosy4KY1Y
Website:
https://www.orderedbytes.com/

I'm thinkin', just the thing for nerds with softwaresynths.
(I just got the Arturia CMI, "Fairlight".)
…and lots of time on their hands...

I think I might try it, even though I'm on Catalina.
Old 30th July 2020 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
The bigger question I have is why you need to have both mix and midi control within a single piece of hardware? There is ZERO contest between Eucon and Digidesign Ethernet/Midi in terms of mix control. Eucon dispenses with the horribly archaic knob-per-function approach of those dated protocols and replaces it with a much lower level macro control. The result from my experience, when you dig in, is a protocol that is 100 times quicker... even on smaller surfaces like the S1 or Dock that are missing custom faders.

Get your hands on the Avid Control IOS/Andriod application if you can, and have a mess around with the soft key/pages/surface macros within EuControl. It's nowhere near as tactile as an S1 or Dock (I love my Dock!), but it is free to use. As an example, it is possible to program a single button in Eucon to enable preview, engage touch automation on the selected track, select write to selection, hide all tracks except selected within Pro Tools, enable volume automation lane, zoom session horizontally to selection and increase track height to fit the screen. That same button can do something entirely different again with a shift + press. I'm not sure about the S1/S3/Dock, but on an S4 or S6, you also get opt/ctrl/cmd modifiers too. That is a lot of power in one button!

Then there are VCA spills, folder track toggles, attention functionality, layouts. I would love custom faders on an S1, but really... in the context of what Eucon does overall, a command 8 or D-command/D-control saves 3 button presses at the expense of keeping 100 more in the workflow. It's quite a false economy. That is precisely why there isn't a dedicated EQ/Dyn section on an S6, and why plugin mappings conform to a standard.

Last edited by LDStudios; 30th July 2020 at 04:16 AM..
Old 30th July 2020
  #12
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Does anyone have any info on CC vs NRPN control?

I can write CC automation in real time But some of my synths controls only respond to NRPN so I have to switch back and forth to have access to everything.
Old 30th July 2020 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDStudios ➡️
The bigger question I have is why you need to have both mix and midi control within a single piece of hardware? There is ZERO contest between Eucon and Digidesign Ethernet/Midi in terms of mix control. Eucon dispenses with the horribly archaic knob-per-function approach of those dated protocols and replaces it with a much lower level macro control. The result from my experience, when you dig in, is a protocol that is 100 times quicker... even on smaller surfaces like the S1 or Dock that are missing custom faders.

Get your hands on the Avid Control IOS/Andriod application if you can, and have a mess around with the soft key/pages/surface macros within EuControl. It's nowhere near as tactile as an S1 or Dock (I love my Dock!), but it is free to use. As an example, it is possible to program a single button in Eucon to enable preview, engage touch automation on the selected track, select write to selection, hide all tracks except selected within Pro Tools, enable volume automation lane, zoom session horizontally to selection and increase track height to fit the screen...

Then there are VCA spills, folder track toggles, attention functionality, layouts. I would love custom faders on an S1, but really... in the context of what Eucon does overall, a command 8 or D-command/D-control saves 3 button presses at the expense of keeping 100 more in the workflow. It's quite a false economy. That is precisely why there isn't a dedicated EQ/Dyn section on an S6, and why plugin mappings conform to a standard.
Welcome to the thread.
I'm shure you're right.
Depends on what you want I guess.
I'm just sayin' I'm happy with myC8, and I can use iPad sidecar with it, but I love the idea of having complete control, like in the old days. And I'd like to customize my keybord controllers to suit f.ex my newly aquired CMI vintage synth. So ControllerMate looks tantalizing.

The OP's final question was after all about MIDI learn.
Old 30th July 2020 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 ➡️
Does anyone have any info on CC vs NRPN control?

I can write CC automation in real time But some of my synths controls only respond to NRPN so I have to switch back and forth to have access to everything.
I think you should start a separate thred. A new topic.
Old 30th July 2020 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Jenssen ➡️
Welcome to the thread.
I'm shure you're right.
Depends on what you want I guess.
I'm just sayin' I'm happy with myC8, and I can use iPad sidecar with it, but I love the idea of having complete control, like in the old days. And I'd like to customize my keybord controllers to suit f.ex my newly aquired CMI vintage synth. So ControllerMate looks tantalizing.

The OP's final question was after all about MIDI learn.

There is nothing wrong with liking the C8. It's a nice little desk... but total control? A competent Eucon user will blow your socks off. Midi learn is really only great if want to limit yourself...
Old 9th February 2021 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
RedTuxedo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryLimestone ➡️
I had been wondering if there is a way of controlling plugin paramaters in Pro Tools as well. The way I got around some issues is by using Controllermate software (currently not supported on Catalina, I don't know if it will ever be updated). I emailed the guy who created it but never got a reply. The buy option on the website was actually missing last time I checked, seeing he probably doesn't want trouble from people buying it and it not working on a newer OS. I tried many ways of getting in touch, even offering others to pay to use their license (seeing I run Mojave),but never got a reply. The free version is limited to only a few blocks.

Eventually I found an old dodgy youtube video with a serial number/activation code in the description that actually worked! I tried everything to contact and pay for it, so I don't think I did anything wrong, just found that video. Small developers especially should be paid of course.

You can download the trial version from the website still, so that's how I got it in the first place.

It doesn't actually really use midi (it can send midi but this still wouldn't work with using Pro Tools) but instead macro key and mouse commands. You can use screenshots and coordinates to assign paramaters etc. Pro Tools will think it's your mouse. It's really easy to use. If you google controllermate pro tools some videos will pop up. Good luck!
Working on getting a Mojave system working with a controller (K-Mix) and found this link to Controllermate.

https://sites.fastspring.com/ordered...controllermate
Old 9th February 2021 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Nut
 
BarryLimestone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedTuxedo ➡️
Working on getting a Mojave system working with a controller (K-Mix) and found this link to Controllermate.

https://sites.fastspring.com/ordered...controllermate
Ah cool! Controllermate is great but, seeing it stil hasn't been updated, I personally now don't think it's worth spending 20 euros (or whatever the price is on the website using that link). Back when I first posted I had hopes of a future update, but I have since gathered this won't be happening, so for anyone running anything above Mojave, it won't work...
IF it will be updated I'll definitely get it, but it seems like it won't be, and I am planning to upgrade to Catalina at some point soon. For anyone who wants to make macro stuff output midi, or who wants to use an old ipad, iphone, Wii controller, etc... just get TOUCH OSC or something like that!

https://osculator.net/
https://hexler.net/products/touchosc


I have since moved on to making my own midi controllers with Opendeck (by Shantea Controls, @ paradajz ), literally the greatest product related to midi controls I have ever seen .... so easy... I really don't get how it isn't more well known. It offers so much for so little, you can make anything!! I am actually in the process of making a midi controller blind plate for a space I left within my console. I will be using it mainly to control automation and short keys etc, will be using the touchscreens they support and buttons, & a joystick! NO CODING INVOLVED BTW, all done in a web editor! (I attached some pics of the controller I made for my brother below around Xmass, it's all hand made, no laser cut front plate, so it's a bit DIY Looking and un-symmetrical... haha)


I also pre-ordered the MP midi controller (which will also sit in the same gap/blind panel in my console) which will host plugins within its own shell and auto map paramaters (it has touch and rotaries), that way you don't have to worry about mapping it in the actual DAW itself, and will work the same for any day and insert.

For now with Opendeck, or anything else for that matter, I'm going to use Reaper, seeing I finally realised that the industry leading DAW which I have been using for years isn't all that great, and is very restrictive... Sure, I do love the clear simple UI of Pro Tools, and nothing beats it for recording and editing features, but man, why not just allow people to simply map midi paramaters like in Logic x or Reaper... It's so stupid. I guess they'd rather sell their own overpriced controllers haha, that might offer some more flexibility...
Attached Thumbnails
What is the state of MIDI controllers in Pro Tools?-4f1215fe-e637-4fc8-9b04-6426e9c85d2d.jpg   What is the state of MIDI controllers in Pro Tools?-d1b9b66f-6944-445b-b718-81f4aab99921.jpg   What is the state of MIDI controllers in Pro Tools?-fe06563d-4bc5-4156-8767-5744876013dd.jpg   What is the state of MIDI controllers in Pro Tools?-80d3a6b2-964e-435e-b22e-e31bf4bee178.jpg  

Last edited by BarryLimestone; 9th February 2021 at 01:39 PM..
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