Hello everyone,

Long time lurker here, and figured it would be worth it to call upon the collective intelligence to determine cost/benefit of selling/using my Pro Tools 8 HD 2 TDM system with digidesign 192 i/o.

Application: I am a singer/songwriter that has been mixing and producing my original material in Pro Tools, in the box, since 2010. Occasional producing, mixing, tracking for other artists.

Problem: I've recently been venturing into outboard gear (Purchased two Kush Tweakers, and looking to match my Vintech X73i unit), to use for printing and tracking audio for mixing and novice mastering. Not thrilled so far with the performance of my Presonus Studio 1810 when using as Hardware Insert. The Hardware Insert Latency offset is not quite bullet proof and I'm accepting that I may need to nudge and move printed tracks to correct phasing issues, etc... with this work flow. Second part of problem, is that all the plugins I for production are AAX 64 bit, so when I look for TDM solutions, I hit some workflow dead ends when it comes to any hope of producing and mixing in TDM rig.

Possible Solutions:

1). Pony up money and Sell Pro Tools 8 HD 2 TDM, PC on XP, Digi 192 i/o to see if Hardware Insert Performance/Functionality might improve with purchasing a NEW RME interface like a 802, UFX II usb or UCX. ( P.S. I don't plan on getting/affording THAT much outboard gear, so considered a balanced batch bay and a UCX, although it might be nice to have the extra flexibility with more i/o of other unites, for hardware inserts.)

OR

2). Configure my Pro Tools HD 2 system as a tracker/mixer to work with outboard gear.

The issue with solution 2 is that I am completely dependent on my 64 bit AAX plugins for producing and special effects. My workflow of creating would have to involve producing everything in my main Win 7 64 bit PC and then having to find a system to export into the HD rig which is running Windows XP for Pro Tools 8 HD. I get great results tracking into my RME Baby Face, so that kind of defeats the "tracking" function of the Pro Tools HD TDM rig. I rarely record drums.

It seems the technology was highly sought after and solid for a while, and I know I'm venturing into new territory with mixing outside the box with hardware, and it seems that I may be able to find a better workflow with printing tracks with my outboard gear, without having to nudge and align, etc...with my TDM rig.

In the meantime, I'll continue to play around with the Pro Tools Hardware inserts and delay offset, to see if I could at least efficiently print tracks with my compressors when needed, without having to nudge. I admit there is more for me to learn here and play around with. Truth be told, I don't particularly trust the signal from the Presonus studio 1810. The RME babyface just sounds so much cleaner, and I'm wondering how much signal degradation I may be getting printing with the Presonus. Then again, I probably won't actually notice it with my ears, but hey, every bit of quality counts right?

I figured that for what it's worth, there must be others in similar situations and since my situation is somewhat unique from what I've found from other threads, I figure I post here and see if I get any bites, what others might learn from it, or if it becomes a ghost thread

Thanks in advance! Looking forward to seeing what the other half is doing with their TDM rigs and how I can squeeze some more value out of the old goat!

Intel Core i7-3770 CPU @3.40 GHz
16 Gig RAM
Windows 7 64 Bit
250 SSD
1 TB HD

Pro Tools HD PC is running Windows XP, and Multi-Core processor, Believe it was a 9220 or something like that. The fastest one before the i series came out.

As a quick update (and to give the appearance this thread is active lol) I tackled the hardware insert latency thing on my Presonus 1810 to find that apparently at highest HW Buffer Size setting of 1024 @44.1), there seems to be about 24.46 milliseconds of delay.

What's kind of annoying is that this number appears to change slightly when I tried opening another session and doing the same test. For the test I had a few random sounds (kick, snare, signal generator, clap and vocal). I made sure ADC was enabled and also ensured there were no other tracks using ADC. When I tried doing the same exact test using the 24.46 H/W Insert Delay (same exact setting @44.1 and no other plugins using ADC) I found that this number didn't work anymore. 23.68 apparently was the new value. Then trying to jump back into another session and do the test, 24.46 was the magic number again. I'm not sure what is going on here, as it seems either the Studio One has different digital delay at various times, or if the numbers are so close I am just splitting hairs. In any event, I wanted to share.

I conducted the test per "Determining your hardware insert delay" section in pro tools manual. I made sure the signal was just a dry sound from my compressor.

I had almost the exact same system and eventually got fed up of the terrible convertors in the digi192 so upgraded to a MacBook Pro with an Apogee Symphony.
They aren't cheap but the quality of my recordings (and mixes) have improved night and day.

I'd recommend thinking through your gear and going for a quality over quantity (less is more) approach. There is little value in using hardware once you're ITB, unless you have top notch convertors.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts hiccup!

You make a really salient point that in order to maximize the use of my outboard gear, I should be using top notch converters. Although the Presonus 1810 is a nice little utility box, I find myself more and more reaching for my Babyface Gen 1 for mixing. I really have been impressed with RME. I may try to finagle a hardware insert using my Babyface (headphones as monitor's).

I think it's time to sell my HD rig to someone that will appreciate it.

The next question I'll be pondering for the future once I pony up some cash, is how many i/o's will I want/need? The UCX has a few, but then I can step up to 802 or UFX II for so much more. Hmnn... all good choices I'm sure!

Final Conclusion: Purchased a DiGiGrid DLI Sound Grid Expansion Interface to use with my Digidesign 192 i/o. Will see how that runs on Pro Tools 12 Vanilla before being tempted to look into the DiGiGrid Servers. My PC is pretty powerful, so maybe we will be good.

How's this working for you? I had the DLI so I could use my Lynx Aurora with the LT-HD card and not have to use a Native HD card or HDX. Worked great at 44.1 and 48k but didn't above that so I sold it but I believe it was a software issue that Waves eventually addressed. Is it working at 88.2 and 96 for you? Are you on Windows? I'm thinking about getting another one but don't want to buy into the same problems again. Thanks!

To be honest sleepingtiger, it took about a day of talking to tech support to get it to work. You can't use the the i/o in Pro Tools for routing, it all has to be configured to come out from Soundgrid Studio (think RME TotalMix, but far more confusing). For some reason it seems to keep defaulting to 48K when all of my sessions are at 44.1, so that could be a little annoying, although there must be a way to fix that I'm sure. After setting it up, it was working without a hitch, but keep reading....

I will say this though, the Tech Support guys at Waves were absolutely phenomenal. The guy I spoke with called me back several times and even did screen shots of his Soungrid to help configure my system.

Unfortunately once I started to dig into a mix, I noticed that there are clicks and pops that occur. They happen about 1 every 5 times. This doesn't occur with my RME Babyface so I'm pretty disappointed. To be honest, I didn't test above 44.1 to specifically answer your question since I'm getting clicks and pops, even when I de-select that box in Pro Tools Playback Preferences. I'll be returning this device, although perhaps someone with a different PC set up may have different results.

I'm not going to slam this hardware, but I think for the price of $699 (DLI Cost), to use my Digidesign 192, I can't justify spending that money for something that is not performing (at least on my system) better than my Babyface Gen 1.

I'm considering a used Antelope Zen Tour as a last ditch option. If that doesn't work, then I'll just buy RME and surely be happy.

I've read some conflicting reports on the Zen Tour, and don't want to keep buying gear and eventually want to start working on music again lol. I am just uncertain of how it would work on my computer. I had the opportunity to play around with one not too long ago, and really liked the sound of the FPGA effects. It was a really steep learning curve to figure out how to route, but they sounded decent. I just never worked with the unit long enough to experience any issues like some of the folks reported.

I may just need to pony up the extra cash and get the RME. I'm pretty confident I would be done, but part of me likes saving a buck. But to think, how much time I've already wasted trying to save a buck lol.

One last thing worth noting is that the tech support guy said that I shouldn't route the ethernet cable through my wireless router. I'll try doing one last test directly plugged in and see if the pops still occur. If you don't see me write back, that means the pops are still there.
UPDATE: Did the test with ethernet cable going directly into PC and the performance was better when disengaging the "Ignore clicks and pops" the clicks still occurred, just not as frequently.

Thank you very much for such a detailed response!

It's been close to 2 years since I sent my DLI back but I do remember it took some tinkering with the ethernet to get it to work at 44.1 and 48.k. I also remember that I ended up using the switch that Waves recommends with the unit. Once it was working I got used to the Soundgrid flow pretty quickly but very stupidly didn't test out 88.2 capabilities until a client was there one day with sessions at 88.2. What came out of the speakers was pure digital garbage, not just clicks and pops. The audio was completely mangled like I never heard before. It was very disappointing, especially since by that time I had grown to like the DLI and had gotten used to using it.

As to Waves support, I was very impressed with the individuals I was in contact with but not the company as a whole. Everyone was super helpful, responsive, courteous etc. In fact, I was sent to the team that developed the DLI for help. On the surface this seemed great and they treated me well but after one particular hour long phone call I realized that they were pretty much using my situation as a troubleshooting/ beta testing opportunity to fix things that should have been sorted out before the product was ever released. Eventually, after much communication they sort of threw their hands in the air and I returned the unit. Months later I got an email saying there was a software update and I got the impression that maybe the issue had been taken care of.

My problem is that I came from a Pro Tools HD system with Lynx converters with the HD-LT card which limits my options going forward. Currently I'm using an Avid HD Native card which isn't terrible but it means I have to have Pro Tools Ultimate which I don't particularly need. The DLI seemed to be the perfect solution since it would have allowed me to keep my converters as they are and ditch the Avid hardware while opening up the possibility of using the vanilla version of Pro Tools.

I may talk with my dealer and see if I can take the DLI for another spin though your experience doesn't sound encouraging. Thanks again for your response!

For the record, 192's do not have "terrible converters"....last time I watched AVATAR it sounded great...along with thousands of other hit records and movies.

Is it the best? No. Is it terrible? No.

Not disagreeing but what part of AVATAR (or any modern film mix) do you think uses converters at all?

Avatar was a digital workflow and digital delivery.
(yes, there are converters used for production audio and foley, etc, but that varies and production audio was most likely via field recorder converters. The mix was on a digital desk and the audio was kept in the digital realm after ingest right to delivery.)

Uh...the part recording the live orchestra segments.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh550oWbhic

The mix being judged using the D-A converters?



The literally hundreds of others films and records out there???

Usually when referring to the a film you are referring to a film sound just not the score. People say "score" like "Avatar score" when referring to music only.

As for films scores, not all of them use Avid converters. Shawn Murphy uses Pacific Microsonics (he has a rack that goes to his scoring sessions). Skywalker Scoring uses Pacific Microsonics and Avid. Abbey Road uses Prism. AIR uses sometimes Apogee sometimes Avid. Newman scoring stage currently uses Avid converters but I can't remember what they were using in 2008-9 pre-HDX. I remember bringing Apogee 16X converter racks over there back then so who knows what Simon Rhodes used/requested [edited -- seems Simon said he used the 192 in your post now]. It was pretty common to bring in your own systems to plug in.

But point being, the 192 converters don't suck. But you can't actually make a blanket statement based on other projects (unless you were involved in them)

To be honest, I'm sure it was just a clocking issue. I just didn't want to bother with tinkering anymore than I already have. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work at 88K with a separate clocking cable. Eventually you'd get to where you want to be I'm sure. Shouldn't hurt purchasing and returning within the return time, if it doesn't work.

Here's a used one at GC for $599! Throw it on your guitar center gear card and have 45 days to tinker around with it.
https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/In...o-Interface.gc

I've run through a few different options and really have been thinking about just buying a RME UFX, and finally bit the bullet and did it.

My friend is a big Digigrid fan and is convinced it's the greatest thing for folks that want to make use of their hard earned Pro Tools HD gear. To be fair, he was in a little deeper than I am, so it does make more sense for him.

He's a lot more tech patient than I am. I'm quite frankly tired of being out of writing music and want to start printing some tracks through my Kush Tweaker compressors!

The RME Babyface I've used for years has been bulletproof and quite honestly, made me a little spoiled. I can't think of any better option and don't want to be messing around anymore and hope I'll be done with the UFX.

As for oceantracks and pentagon, I really didn't mind the Digidesign 192 mostly because I was familiar with it's sound from years of using. I seem to find it has a little bit of a digital grit stank to it, which is what it is.

Even using the Presonus 1810, I really didn't think it was terrible. Just sounded a little cloudy compared to my Babyface and I was getting inconsistent hardware latency calcs, leading me to believe it's drivers weren't anywhere near the same level as the RME Babyface gen 1 is. For the babyface I ran the inserts through 1 and 2 and monitored through the headphone jack 3/4. My hardware latency calcs were spot on every time. After 3 years of the babyface, and I'm quite used it's clarity and sound too. I felt there was an audible difference compared to the Presonus 1810 for sure.

Since I'm beginning to invest in hardware, I really need to have at least 3 stereo hardware inserts. RME or Digidesign would've suited my needs perfectly for now and some time into the future. I just couldn't justify spending $700 for a middleman to make my Digidesign work when spending a little more, get's me an RME interface with everything I need. I trust the converters will be similar (Thanks Avid for sticking it to use loyal die hard Pro Tools HD customers )

As a matter of fact, I learned that the UFX gen 1 is not that far behind the 802 in quality.

After taking a hearing quality test, I realized that I could save at least 1K by getting a used UFX, especially since I likely wouldn't hear the difference. I listened through headphones on my phone and royally failed this test lol.

I wonder how well you guys would do in the test?

If you play along, please tell me how you set up and what you listened through!

https://www.npr.org/sections/thereco...-audio-quality

Thanks for everyone's contribution to this thread!

If it prevents one person in a similar situation, save time and money by getting what they truly want from day 1, then I'll be content!

Here's an update for you, just heard from Simon:

"Your discussee is incorrect, We used dozens of 192’s on Avatar, I’ll find pictures. Around 2012 we went to a purely digital mixdown scenario with multiple rigs and sample rate conversion from 96K orchestral recording - no analog at all once the band was done. "

TH

Double check what you just quoted. I made that correction 2 days ago. It’s in what you quoted.

Didn't see your reply, sorry, just now heard back from him.

In addition several others chimed in to mention them being used all over Abbey Road and AIR at the time. They were, and are, nothing to sneeze at, was and is my point.

TH

What was the benefit/reason in buying/using DLI instead of a Native HD card?

The HD Native card requires Pro Tools Ultimate and the subscription cost outweighs my need for the added Ultimate features which I only seldomly use and hardly ever actually require. The DLI allows for using my Lynx Aurora with HD-LT card in 32 channel mode without Ultimate. There's also the added Soundgrid capabilities and better compatibility with other DAWs as well as the DLI being less expensive.

The HD Native card is however a more streamlined solution but I would have kept the DLI if it had functioned correctly at all sample rates.

Of course I don't have to keep my subscription going. In fact, it lapsed a couple of weeks ago and I'm in the grace period considering my options. I may just stay where I am for a while.

I'm probably going HD native with Protools Ultimate and just biting the bullet, but a temporary fix could be adding a Rednet 5 Dante interface to the TDM system and using Dante virtual on the new 64bit system.

Thanks for reminding me about the Rednet stuff. I'm going to revisit. I've got about 10 days left in my grace period to renew my Ultimate subscription before the price goes way up so I'm really looking at my options at the moment.

A quick update, RME UCX is flawless! Works without a hitch and the sound of my mixes sounds more articulate than before. Although I honestly can't compare to DigiGrid due to clicks and pops, I'm just happy to have an interface working to get me going again.

I took the same test above using the UCX and my Dynaudio monitors and now got 4 out of 6 correct.

On a side note...after installing Izotope Production Bundle 2, using instances of Nuetron 2 Advanced and Tonal Balance Control, it kicked one of my pro tools sessions butt

I barely can open that session anymore (1117 and 9073 errors I believe) and had to export the recorded clips and try to start from scratch.

Anywho, that's all I got! Checking out!

The Avid 192 i/o blue face is what I use and more then fine. I mix totally in the box and I have great mixes. To the OP, don't get caught up in needing this or that. You don't. Your mixing skills are 1000 more time important that what ever converter is going to make.

Just note, you can use Pro Tools 8.1.1 TDM system in Maverick. Also on Pro Tools 10 HD. It works flawless and I love it.

I'm going to upgrade my Mac to a 12 core cheese grader and call it. I do run out of cpu using AAX plugins but the 12 core would be more then enough.
I use my TDM cards (HD3) for efx.

I'm going to get 2 to 3 more cards just so I can leave it at 192 tracks and don't have to keep changing the track count.

I can say the Pro Tools 10 HD is really good and all you need for mixing. All the rest of that stuff is candy in Pro Tools 11HD etc. I have that as well and did a full mix on PT11HD Native.

JusMyThoughts, Marc

It is nice idea by Waves about DigiGrid dli to support us who owns blue 192 Digidesign converters but apparently doesn’t work. I bought unit 6 months ago and since beginning I got problems so I hoped and tried almost everything (regretting to not sent back during first month) with PT, Logic PX and Reaper new cables but it looks like problem with clocking or with Soundgrid software. No idea what to do, it’s true that they are very kind to help from Waves (got their help) but that’s not enough because the problem is still here, so disappointed.

How long ago was this? Was it at all sample rates? Mine worked great at 44.1 and 48 but was badly broken at 88.2 and 96.

It's a real shame because in many ways it was the perfect solution for me.

It’s my current situation, and I do too in 48, 96 and
this problem is not always it’s just starting time to time but you can’t work, it’s just happening

Guys,

I'm migrating from PT 12.7 vanilla to PT Ultimate. I run on a 2012 Mac Mini i7 Server. I will be using a Digidesign/Avid D-Command ES control surface. Two PCie cards came with the D-Command purchase and I'm not sure if or how I can put them to use:

1) digideisgn HD Accel PCie card
2) digideisgn Accel Core PCie card

Are these compatible with PT Ultimate? If not what version of PT HD will they work with? What are they actually going to do for me?

Thanks
NIck

No. Not compatible. Do you have interfaces to go along with those cards? Otherwise they are useless (no, the D-Command is just a control surface and not an interface; no audio passes through it.)
Pro Tools 10 HD was the last one to support the Accel/Core cards.