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Logic Pro X is no longer a pro app.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Logic Pro X is no longer a pro app.

I have long since contended that Apple it's neglecting its professional customers. It took nearly 4 years for Logic to get upgraded to X. Over 4 years for a new Mac Pro, or should I say Mac Mini Pro.

I've used Logic since 1996 when it came on floppy disks and upgrades/updates came thick and fast. I have just purchased Apple Pro X from the App Store. I didn't get a VAT invoice so I wrote to Apple and asked for one.

The reply is surprising. Firstly, Apple is unable to provide a VAT invoice. So much for serving its professional customers but get this.... according to the reply I received from Apple, here's the reason:

Quote:
Since you have agreed to make iTunes Store purchases only for personal, noncommercial use, the iTunes Store is not required to provide VAT invoices for this type of purchase.

You can review these purchase terms in the “Usage Rules” section of the iTunes Store Terms and Conditions. You can find the Terms and Conditions at this link:

Apple - Legal - iTunes Store Terms and Conditions
So it seems I am not able to use Logic Pro X for commercial purposes!!! The "purchase terms" only allow for "personal, noncommercial use."

What a joke. So much for Apple's "Pro" apps.
Old 4th February 2014
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Apple as a company is 100x the size of Avid (by capitalization.) It seems really weird to me that they can't do better with Logic.
Old 4th February 2014 | Show parent
  #3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter ➡️
Apple as a company is 100x the size of Avid (by capitalization.) It seems really weird to me that they can't do better with Logic.
Agreed. I'm going to get in touch with UK Customs and Excise because I'm not sure what Apple is doing here is legal in the UK.
Old 4th February 2014
  #4
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Apple is a company that lives on amrketing, hype and foolish customers. all their products are cheap rubbish sold overexpensive. Apple lives on their religious followers, their believers, not on well informed customers. thats the facts. and if you do your research seriously, you cant deny really.

Last edited by whiteaxxxe; 4th February 2014 at 08:39 PM.. Reason: deleted the word "iDiots" ...
Old 4th February 2014 | Show parent
  #5
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy ➡️
Agreed. I'm going to get in touch with UK Customs and Excise because I'm not sure what Apple is doing here is legal in the UK.
in Germany this is definetively not legally ok. doesnt matter if something is for personal use, VAT is VAT.
Old 4th February 2014 | Show parent
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe ➡️
Apple is a company that lives on amrketing, hype and foolish customers. all their products are cheap rubbish sold overexpensive. Apple lives on their religious followers, their believers, not on well informed customers. thats the facts. and if you do your research seriously, you cant deny really.
dont hold back.....tell us how you really feel!!!!
Old 4th February 2014
  #7
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy ➡️

So it seems I am not able to use Logic Pro X for commercial purposes!!! The "purchase terms" only allow for "personal, noncommercial use."
That is weird.

Mind you, it also fits with this:

Richard Dreyfuss Reads the iTunes EULA - YouTube
Old 4th February 2014
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Jpchartrand's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I'm a Logic guy all the way but I'm really disappointed that X didn't include some basic 1993 features such as being able to edit a WAV's gain in the arrange window. Routing internal midi is also sub par.
Old 4th February 2014
  #9
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I asked this before but didn't get a response. Are these two basic functions really gone:

1. In L9, it is possible to unlink the Arrange window from any open Mixer windows. This way, you can work on two or more channel strips without the Mixer jumping around every time a different track gets selected.

2. In L9, there is an option to display preset libraries of individual VIs, including EXS24. In fact, L9 does it automatically: When you bring up a Channel Strip, all your Channel Strip presets are displayed, yet when you click on a VI, the associated preset library is displayed.
Old 4th February 2014
  #10
Gear Nut
 
fisherking's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
as a longtime logic user (emagic days), am basically thrilled with X; the GUI is more musical, less spreadsheet. flex pitch, track stacks, drum kit designer. AWESOME stuff, and definitely a big improvement over 9. to each his own i guess...
Old 4th February 2014 | Show parent
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe ➡️
Apple is a company that lives on amrketing, hype and foolish customers. all their products are cheap rubbish sold overexpensive. Apple lives on their religious followers, their believers, not on well informed customers. thats the facts. and if you do your research seriously, you cant deny really.
Let me throw out all of my apple products immediately!
Old 4th February 2014
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
The notion that X is not a pro app is just not true. X has almost everything that 9 had, plus a whole lot more. Not sure what the language in the Terms doc means exactly, but the app is solid, and I use it daily for pro work.

But man that Dreyfuss video was hilarious - thanks for sharing that.
Old 4th February 2014
  #13
Deleted User
Guest
The Apple employee the OP was in contact with was an idiot (i.e., not a "genius"). They should provide you with a VAT invoice IMO. Search for the word "commercial" in the link provided to you: U.S. Terms and Conditions: C. MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE TERMS AND CONDITIONS

THIS LEGAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND APPLE INC. ("APPLE") GOVERNS YOUR USE OF THE MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE SERVICES (THE “APP AND BOOK SERVICES”).

THE MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE SERVICES

Apple is the provider of the App and Book Services that permit you to license software products and digital content (the “App and Book Products”) for end user use only under the terms and conditions set forth in this Agreement. For App Store Products (defined below), end users may be individuals acting in their own capacities, commercial enterprises or educational institutions.

UK Terms and Conditions:

C. MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE TERMS AND CONDITIONS

THIS LEGAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND ITUNES SARL ("ITUNES") GOVERNS YOUR USE OF THE MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE (“STORES”) AND THE PURCHASE OF LICENCES FROM THEM, WHICH ARE SOLD TO YOU BY ITUNES.

THE MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE

iTunes is the provider of the Stores that permit you to purchase from iTunes licences to software products from the App Store and Mac App Store (together, “App Store Products”) and digital book content (the “iBooks Store Products”) for end user use only under the terms and conditions set forth in this Agreement. For App Store Products, end users may be individuals acting in their own capacities, or commercial enterprises or educational institutions. App Store Products and iBooks Store Products shall be referred to together as “Products”.
Old 4th February 2014 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by claurence ➡️
The Apple employee the OP was in contact with was an idiot (i.e., not a "genius"). They should provide you with a VAT invoice IMO. Search for the word "commercial" in the link provided to you: U.S. Terms and Conditions: C. MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE TERMS AND CONDITIONS

THIS LEGAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND APPLE INC. ("APPLE") GOVERNS YOUR USE OF THE MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE SERVICES (THE “APP AND BOOK SERVICES”).

THE MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE SERVICES

Apple is the provider of the App and Book Services that permit you to license software products and digital content (the “App and Book Products”) for end user use only under the terms and conditions set forth in this Agreement. For App Store Products (defined below), end users may be individuals acting in their own capacities, commercial enterprises or educational institutions.

UK Terms and Conditions:

C. MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE TERMS AND CONDITIONS

THIS LEGAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND ITUNES SARL ("ITUNES") GOVERNS YOUR USE OF THE MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE (“STORES”) AND THE PURCHASE OF LICENCES FROM THEM, WHICH ARE SOLD TO YOU BY ITUNES.

THE MAC APP STORE, APP STORE AND IBOOKS STORE

iTunes is the provider of the Stores that permit you to purchase from iTunes licences to software products from the App Store and Mac App Store (together, “App Store Products”) and digital book content (the “iBooks Store Products”) for end user use only under the terms and conditions set forth in this Agreement. For App Store Products, end users may be individuals acting in their own capacities, or commercial enterprises or educational institutions. App Store Products and iBooks Store Products shall be referred to together as “Products”.
The Apple employee is indeed an idiot. However the US Terms and Conditions for the app store don't apply to me in the UK.
iTUNES STORE - TERMS AND CONDITIONS .....

From which....

Quote:
(ii) If you are a commercial enterprise or educational institution, you may download a Mac App Store Product for use by either (a) a single individual on each of the Mac Computer(s) used by that individual that you own or control, or (b) multiple individuals on a single shared Mac Computer that you own or control. For example, a single employee may use a Mac App Store Product on both the employee’s desktop Mac Computer and laptop Mac Computer, or multiple students may serially use the Mac App Store Product on a single Mac Computer located at a resource centre or library. For the sake of clarity, each Mac Computer used serially by multiple users requires a separate licence.
I've told the Apple guy to pass the case to his/her supervisor. The only mention of VAT in the UK Terms and Conditions is:

Quote:
Your total price will include the price of the product plus any applicable VAT (in effect on the day of download).
Which means nothing.
Old 4th February 2014
  #15
Deleted User
Guest
I posted the UK Terms and Conditions just below the US Terms and Conditions (they're nearly identical) in my post you quoted. Hopefully this supervisor will get it right.
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #16
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpchartrand ➡️
I'm a Logic guy all the way but I'm really disappointed that X didn't include some basic 1993 features such as being able to edit a WAV's gain in the arrange window. Routing internal midi is also sub par.
Well, perhaps you should have dived a bit deeper into Logic Pro X. You can, indeed, change region gain non-destructively (a huge help and, something I was missing in past versions).

Just select the region(s) in the arrange window, and in the inspector at the top left, with quantization options, etc, you can choose to non-destructively raise or lower the gain of the selected regions.

LPX is a substantial upgrade from LP9. I'm very, very happy with it, especially since Apple is bringing out new plugins (I.e. The upgraded channel EQ, which now can go toe-to-toe with many third-party plugs).

Before the LPX release, I was considering switching to Studio One professional since Apple is completely uncommunicative and I didn't know whether Logic has dead. LPX has renewed my faith - as much as S1 and Digital Performer are great apps, Logic takes the cake for me, and for many other professional users.

Enjoy!
Asa
Mountvalley.net
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by claurence ➡️
I posted the UK Terms and Conditions just below the US Terms and Conditions (they're nearly identical) in my post you quoted. Hopefully this supervisor will get it right.
She did.... I asked that the case be referred to a supervisor and immediately got a VAT invoice!!!! It has a mistake on it though
Old 5th February 2014
  #18
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
i think that logic X is a real improvement on Logic 9, much more stable. Of course there are still a few glitches....but i experience less crashes than ever.
Old 5th February 2014
  #19
GS Community Manager
 
Whitecat's Avatar
Final Cut Pro X took a couple years to come around, and according to at least one person I know who does post professionally full-time, it's "nearly there."

Hopefully the same will happen for Logic. I know a long wait is no consolation, but there you go.
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Jpchartrand's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlindax ➡️
Well, perhaps you should have dived a bit deeper into Logic Pro X. You can, indeed, change region gain non-destructively (a huge help and, something I was missing in past versions).

Just select the region(s) in the arrange window, and in the inspector at the top left, with quantization options, etc, you can choose to non-destructively raise or lower the gain of the selected regions.

LPX is a substantial upgrade from LP9. I'm very, very happy with it, especially since Apple is bringing out new plugins (I.e. The upgraded channel EQ, which now can go toe-to-toe with many third-party plugs).

Before the LPX release, I was considering switching to Studio One professional since Apple is completely uncommunicative and I didn't know whether Logic has dead. LPX has renewed my faith - as much as S1 and Digital Performer are great apps, Logic takes the cake for me, and for many other professional users.

Enjoy!
Asa
Mountvalley.net
Thanks for the tip but imo that's slower than adding a Gain plugin and editing its automation.
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #21
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsdy ➡️
She did.... I asked that the case be referred to a supervisor and immediately got a VAT invoice!!!! It has a mistake on it though
LOL In their defense, the geniuses are on the storeroom floor, not the call center. Is that a defense?
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe ➡️
Apple is a company that lives on amrketing, hype and foolish customers. all their products are cheap rubbish sold overexpensive. Apple lives on their religious followers, their believers, not on well informed customers. thats the facts. and if you do your research seriously, you cant deny really.

http://c414155.r55.cf1.rackcdn.com/w...oads/laugh.mp3
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #23
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpchartrand ➡️
Thanks for the tip but imo that's slower than adding a Gain plugin and editing its automation.
Whaaat....?
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Jpchartrand's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris D ➡️
Whaaat....?
Yeah I load the gain plugin first in my chain (that way it doesn't affect the faders). Then I just use the marquee tool to select the spot I want to change the gain and voila. Easy and quick.
Old 5th February 2014
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
luizdepalma's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Yep. Emagic days were the best. After a brief dance with X, was glad I kept my orriginal 9 on my main boxes.
Looks good, sounds good but 9's probably the most pro Apple will go.

:-)
Old 5th February 2014
  #26
Lives for gear
 
valis's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I think you guys are looking at this with rose tinted graphics (so to speak).

After V3 brought Logic up to day-to-day usefulness, I've seen the same pattern of complaints & updates that we still see today

...when v4 came out I was thrilled to be able to break automation out into 'hyperdata' buried in individual parts on their own independant timelines. Finally multi-lane midi & channel automation the way I wanted to arrange it rather than separate on the bottom of the piano roll and in the track (as other apps had it, which btw I also owned). Same with the various versions of v5, the additions of plugin automation that wasn't just midi channel/cc based (and backwards compatibility to the v4 methods) worked fine for me, but roll the clock forward and many weren't happy that the legacy support for v4 hyperdata automation meant that VSTi's couldn't send & receive midi data quite as flexibly as other apps that didn't support midi automation of in-app (mixer) elements at all... The same thing with Logic's approach to auxes instead of busses, and the multi-output support, and the eventual support of PDC, etc etc.

At each step since things progressed from Notator people tended to compare Logic against Cubase and PT, and complain about how Logic was not pro, or didn't update frequently enough, or the updates were underwhelming (when the from Big Box to Platinum to modern versions where you get all content etc)...

Now I'm not saying LPX is perfect, in fact I still use V9 for various reasons (noted below for completeness) for the bulk of my audio/music work. And I fully recognize the limitations that people have brought up over the years myself, as I obviously see htem too. The central thing to me though is that I like Logic for its particular strengths (environment, hyperdata approach, being able to move between Track Automation & Object Automation, the cleanliness of linked windows, the object oriented nature) and those strengths also tend to be its weaknesses. Including being Apple owned these days... Those strengths are its weaknesses because in fact in most cases the choice to retain one set of functionality limits another (needing to use workarounds to get midi OUT of VI's, the way multi instruments work with multi-output VI's, the continued support of the environment etc etc.

Note on why I'm still on V9: The only thing really keeping me away from LPX personally is that I'll shift everything potentially including hardware when I do jump. I'm already committed on the laptop side of things, so it won't be a workflow issue when I do move. However my desktop is still on Lion and has so much stuff installed that I'd have to port over that I'll just wait until I have a week of downtime (and or a new machine) to move over and do as much as possible in parallel on alternate boot partitions etc (which is in fact already in place). And I personally use Live, Logic and sometimes Cubase anyway, so if I do feel limited in one

Also in this or another thread people have complained about Logic's automatic track management messing with their environment structure. Turn it off! (assuming you still can in LPX?)
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpchartrand ➡️
being able to edit a WAV's gain in the arrange window.
Logic has had it since at least 9, years before Pro Tools could do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpchartrand ➡️
Thanks for the tip but imo that's slower than adding a Gain plugin and editing its automation.
Once the region is selected, that's one click to change gain. For me that's way faster than automating it (and there's no worry about automation not getting moved properly), and it's hard to imagine how it could be done faster. What did you have in mind?
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Jpchartrand's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Connelly ➡️
Logic has had it since at least 9, years before Pro Tools could do it.



Once the region is selected, that's one click to change gain. For me that's way faster than automating it (and there's no worry about automation not getting moved properly), and it's hard to imagine how it could be done faster. What did you have in mind?
Maybe I'm missing something here...I'll give your method a shot tonight and report back.

I remember Cubase allowed WAV gain control at least 10 years ago.
Old 5th February 2014
  #29
Lives for gear
 
NoVi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I ran into the same issue recently and what happened was that it turned out that as a company you can not order through the online store if you want your invoice with VAT. They have special people that deal with business clients and they will make a VAT invoice. Silly thing is that this might be a solution forphysical stuff like hardware, but is not a solution for App Store expenses.

For me, I personally have given up hope over Logic Pro X. I mentioned it before, it is truly beyond me how anybody who has used L9 can produce anything substantial with Logic Pro X, but if it works for you, the better.
Old 5th February 2014 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Jpchartrand's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoVi ➡️
For me, I personally have given up hope over Logic Pro X. I mentioned it before, it is truly beyond me how anybody who has used L9 can produce anything substantial with Logic Pro X, but if it works for you, the better.
What has gone missing from 9 to X? I had to do a few hotkey's and mouse adjusments but it now acts the same as 9. I also get the feeling that it processes the sound better for some reason...
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