The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Logic's Score / Notation Ability & Limitations
Old 11th December 2016
  #1
Gear Head
 
logicprose's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Logic's Scoring / Notational Strengths & Weaknesses

Primarily in reply to Nativeaudio's scrore responses, I thought it might be interesting to see what has changed in newer versions and what has technical solutions for perseived scoring limitations. While workflow and inspiration should not be bottlenecked by technical nuisance, the focus of my input is purely 100% technical. If folks aren't interested, let me know and I will just delete the posts. For those - that just have to do something in the Logic's score editor (like myself, for which I won't use anything else now) - it may prove worthwhile. Even if only one person benefits. Keep in mind I am in NO WAY attempting to create debate or be argumentative on these issues. I am just a big fan of logics notational capabilities ( you may not be and that's ok). Only attempting to provide useful information in the event one may not be aware and something embedded somewhere herein is useful for someone.
If I missed the intent of the issue Sorry! maybe a clarification from those interested would be merited.
(think of this as iPhone texting - spelling does not count! )

I will add to the post over time with thoughts, solutions and/or possible workarounds which again may not be optimal, but do provide a mechanism to achieve the desired notational objective - if one exists.

Correct display of accidentals. Example: Don't call the G# in E major for Ab 186
Other than in the key of C - if you designate the correct key signature, notes input via the SE should reflect the correct notes and not be enharmonically incorrect

Global objects (text/symbols/rehearsal letters) need an option for being locked to *bar* position 180
Global object are meant to NOT be locked to any measure they instead are relative to page/margin/header boundaries. Local objects however are locked to bar positions and will remain in a relative position regardless of score formatting. So inserting text, symbols or rehearsal marks with the intent they stay tied to the bar/beat position - use them as local not global.

All layout parameters independent for score and parts. 178
There is a distinction between score and parts for several layout parameters defined in the global layout. Score sets further produce separation of layout parameters.

Correct display of clefs. Example: In bar 2 of a piano region, set a 3/4 time, and a treble clef in the left hand. The treble clef should be displayed in the *previous* bar (bar 1) so that the time signatures are vertically aligned. 172
Not sure I understand this one?



The capacity to drag bar lines to edit bar size - especially useful in accommodating the odd bar with many/very few notes 163
Agreed that would be nice - you can using the layout tool, to drag notes which will alter the measure length - there are some tricks too to create constant measure widths - but yes this would be nice.


Ability to drag notes between staves (tracks) 159
Agreed - do remember though there are so many other ways to copy note events between staves/tracks - Cut/Paste,the copy midi events function, paste multiple, paste at original - dragging between regions would be nice too.

Better control in situations which currently require creation of separate regions (eg. individual *display* quantize for a selection). 154
Agreed - a force function similar to that of syncopation & interpretation would be nice. Not a show stopper in my opinion.

Smart slurs. Draw the arc of the curve so as to avoid collision with existing symbols. Generally improved shape/arc/curve so slurs automatically look more correct 15
Agreed

Layout preset library for sharing layout styles between songs - which includes the ‘Global’, ‘Numbers & Names’ and ‘Layout’ score settings 150
Some of those ( Layout and Global) do come over when you use the project import feature and enable the score options.




Improved, Real Book-compatible chord look / behavior. Eg. ability to get eg. G7 (#9 )(b13) shown with an initial 'G7' in a large font, and then (#9 ) and (b13) with a smaller font (= b13 *above* - and not after #9 ). 148
Something like this.....



And here is one out of order. Someone mentioned to ability to perform enharmonic changes to chords ( I presume they meant chord symbols but maybe I am mistaken).
You select the chords you want to enharmonically change and press opt+shift b or opt+shift # (there are three positions so you should hit each one twice if you want to see them all. Obviously option up/down arrow - moves the chords chromatically.




******
Let us optionally/automatically only see one rest in polyphonic mode whenever suitable. A big timesaver for writing piano music. 148
Enable hide rests in the staff style for all but one voice

Smarter entering of N-tuplets, bracket adjustment 147
Not sure what this means?

Simpler way to enter chords, especially complex/jazz chords with extensions 146
Agreed but there are some tricks if you have to notate the chords a certain way. Post and example of what can't be done.
If more flexibility is needed in the normal chord settings - I agree.


Slurs should be attached to notes/stems 145
Agreed

A way to click on a rest (w/modifier) and make it invisible (often needed when dealing with polyphony) 145
Ok that would be nice - workaround is to turn off automatic rests in the staff style and insert them as needed.

General grace note improvements 145
Agreed - but there are options for implementing.


Simpler cross staff beaming: Select multiple notes, and click "Beam Selected" 145
Cross staff beaming can be a bit tricky. So long as you assign the notes you want to cross staff beam on the other voice ( using the assign voice above or below the staff) you can then just select all the notes and hit control B - to create a cross staff beam.





Smart symbol algorithm which avoid collisions between beams slurs, arpeggiando symbols, and so on - for all symbol types. 144
Agreed


Global chords should be capable of showing enharmonically correct names 143
I demonstrated this above in an early pic...


Simple way to print chord sheets (without notes/staves: only chord symbols between bar lines) 139
Select a staff style which has the note heads and stems hidden.
One click solution.




Option #2


*****

Dotted extender lines for 8va symbols 139
Agreed

Tremolo signs should be attached to notes/stems 138
Agreed

Simpler ways to perform edits that currently require use of polyphonic mode (eg. ability to edit stem direction of individual notes when two or more notes exist on the same beat ) 137
Rubber band the notes and use the right and left arrow keys to select between the two.


Instrument name option in parts - not only in full score mode
That exists

A simple way to get beamed grace notes 136
see pic in above example of beamed grace


Improved support for 7/8, 3/8, 5/4, 6/8 etc., and additional time signature "presets" (perhaps user-defined) 136
These exist

Option to make beamings reflect beat groupings: Eg. eight 1/32 notes in 4/4 ought to be displayed as 2 groups of 4 1/16 notes, beamed together with a quarter note beam. 135
Similar to this.....




More bar numbering options, eg. hiding/moving of individual numbers 134
You can hide bar numbering, center it, move it above or below the staff, offset numbering, interval skip - lots of options
Give this animation a a second to start - timing was off ( sorry )


One final one for the day.....
Ability to add squiggle gliss or customize the part box.....





From the Logic 11 Wish List

Better control of note names for note noobs
h) later, one of my piano students shall learn the song. He reads simple notes well, but have trouble with reading those with leger lines. Logic can't assign note names to only some notes within a region.

Doesn't this meet the objective?





•••Try to show polyphonic material properly
n) Polyphonic sections are always, as a default, shown wrongly, because that's what Logic can do. In the manual process, I'd like, for simplicity, to see numbers inside the notes, representing the voices, so that notes belonging to voice 1 has a "1" inside the note head etc. Not implemented. See "w" below.

You mean something liked this....





••Note lengths again:
w) Regarding "u" above.... maybe I can use key commands for imposing new note lengths on existing MIDI notes instead? No, I can't.
Sure you can........You press option shift w/left or right arrow to elongate or shorten a note. The incremental value is whatever the nudge value is - I usually set mine to 1/16th but you can have whatever you want it to be....


Last edited by logicprose; 12th December 2016 at 05:59 AM.. Reason: More Meaningful Title
Old 12th December 2016
  #2
Lives for gear
 
nativeaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Interesting thread, logicprose - thanks! I see that you refer to the results of a poll that was held on another forum maybe 7-9 tears ago. Note that most of these wishes weren't mine - and that some of them have been implemented already. I'll comment more later, but here's a short comment to the fist thing you brought up:

Quote:
"Correct display of accidentals. Example: Don't call the G# in E major for Ab"
Other than in the key of C - if you designate the correct key signature, notes input via the SE should reflect the correct notes and not be enharmonically incorrect
Unfortunately there's no more "intelligence" baked into the other keys, so that simple, isolated example would also occur in any other key. I guess Logic needs to either recognise a triad as a triad and spell it like one, or alternatively analyse the situation and and perform some kind of intelligent analysis. And since the latter is a lot more complicated, it would IMO be better - especially since Logic isn't primarily a score editor to try to recognise simple harmonies and type them best as it can... and after all: there's nothing esoteric about having E7 to A minor or B7 to E minor in a song in the key of C major (or A minor... as we know they both defaults do be displayed without any b's or sharps. I don't expect any app to be able to come up with a perfect analysis of all kinds of harmonic combinations, and believe that that suggestions (based around a simple example) got the most votes in the poll I mentioned because Logic so often defaults to get accidentals plain wrong.

Last edited by nativeaudio; 12th December 2016 at 09:07 AM..
Old 12th December 2016
  #3
Lives for gear
 
nativeaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Global objects (text/symbols/rehearsal letters) need an option for being locked to *bar* position 180
Global object are meant to NOT be locked to any measure they instead are relative to page/margin/header boundaries. Local objects however are locked to bar positions and will remain in a relative position regardless of score formatting. So inserting text, symbols or rehearsal marks with the intent they stay tied to the bar/beat position - use them as local not global.
Regarding this one.... I think the suggested was posted since it appeared that various objects seemed to constantly jump to new positions for non-understandable reasons. After that. Apple added "guides" (dotted lines) as an option, which showed which position these objects actually were positioned at, which to a large extent removed many/most of the confusing situations.

Quote:
Correct display of clefs. Example: In bar 2 of a piano region, set a 3/4 time, and a treble clef in the left hand. The treble clef should be displayed in the *previous* bar (bar 1) so that the time signatures are vertically aligned. 172
Not sure I understand this one?
I think the poster was missing a way to have (in a song that starts out eg in 4/4) 3/4 displaed at the end of line one if the actual time signature happens at the beginning of line 2 (instead of appearing only at the beginning og bar 2). Just to make it clear; that would be a song which starts out in 4/4 and where the change to 3/4 happens eg in bar 5 (where the line break is).
Old 12th December 2016 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Head
 
logicprose's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio ➡️
I think the poster was missing a way to have (in a song that starts out eg in 4/4) 3/4 displaed at the end of line one if the actual time signature happens at the beginning of line 2 (instead of appearing only at the beginning og bar 2). Just to make it clear; that would be a song which starts out in 4/4 and where the change to 3/4 happens eg in bar 5 (where the line break is).

Do you mean like this...?

Old 12th December 2016
  #5
Lives for gear
 
nativeaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I don't mean like this, but I think the one who posted that suggestion did. :-)
Old 12th December 2016
  #6
Lives for gear
 
nativeaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicprose ➡️

Improved, Real Book-compatible chord look / behavior. Eg. ability to get eg. G7 (#9 )(b13) shown with an initial 'G7' in a large font, and then (#9 ) and (b13) with a smaller font (= b13 *above* - and not after #9 ). 148
Something like this.....

Chord symbols
Re the G7 #9 /b13 chord... I'm sure you know that if you enter G7 instead of just G in the Root Note field in the chord symbol box, Logic will just ignore it. Likewise, if you just try to type that chord, Logic doesn't understand it. The only way I've come across in order to get what looks like a standard way of displaying such chords is by make sure one is not using the chord symbol function, but instead enter the whole thing as text - in which case it won't work as a chord symbol anymore (it won't transpose if you transpose the region), and you can't use the key commands to change make sharps into b's (or vice versa). Also you need to manuallyadjust sizes of the various elements in order to make them look like chord symbols.

Grace notes
Likewise, if one wants the kind of beamed grace notes which you displayed, one can't just convert the notes into grace notes and then beam them. And if you create three beamed normal notes and make suer they are beamed, and then turn them into independent notes (as opposed the independent grace notes), the beams disappear. The only workaround I'm aware of needs at least four steps, but then again: how many Logic users know about that one? Not many. It shouldn't be that difficult.

If one has to avoid using the grace note function in order to get the grace notes rights, and avoid using the chord symbol function to get the chord symbols right - there's certainly room for improvement. Agree? ;-)
Old 13th December 2016 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Head
 
logicprose's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio ➡️
Chord symbols
Re the G7 #9 /b13 chord... I'm sure you know that if you enter G7 instead of just G in the Root Note field in the chord symbol box, Logic will just ignore it. Likewise, if you just try to type that chord, Logic doesn't understand it. The only way I've come across in order to get what looks like a standard way of displaying such chords is by make sure one is not using the chord symbol function, but instead enter the whole thing as text - in which case it won't work as a chord symbol anymore (it won't transpose if you transpose the region), and you can't use the key commands to change make sharps into b's (or vice versa). Also you need to manuallyadjust sizes of the various elements in order to make them look like chord symbols.

Grace notes
Likewise, if one wants the kind of beamed grace notes which you displayed, one can't just convert the notes into grace notes and then beam them. And if you create three beamed normal notes and make suer they are beamed, and then turn them into independent notes (as opposed the independent grace notes), the beams disappear. The only workaround I'm aware of needs at least four steps, but then again: how many Logic users know about that one? Not many. It shouldn't be that difficult.

If one has to avoid using the grace note function in order to get the grace notes rights, and avoid using the chord symbol function to get the chord symbols right here's certainly room for improvement. Agree? ;-)


Real Book Jazz chords
Those (for the most part) are all chord symbols. The root, the 13th and the 9th are all part of a chord object. The 7 is not. This allows for the chords to be displayed as you indicated as well as allows for the transposition of the chords. If the chords is transpose to a flat or sharp - you will have to adjust the 7 to allow room for the sharp/flat ( that’s the downside) - but certainly can be done!


Grace Notes,
I am not saying there is not room for improvement. I am just saying that if beamed grace notes are what you are after - there is a solution which is clearly indicated in the picture above. So it certainly can be done!
Grace notes go on an aux channel and a little resize tool to make them smaller.

If I have a favorite lead pencil for scoring notes and another pencil for scoring grace notes - and my grace note pencil has a broken point - I can just use the notes pencil for the grace notes - can't I?

Again ( and just my thoughts….) I haven’t found anything that I can’t ( in some way) implement in the score editor for print, which is why I have continued to stay with Logic and find the score editor so amazing in fact.

So yes I agree with you in finding better ways, or simpler ways - no necessarily in there is no way.
Old 13th December 2016 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
nativeaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Sorry, didn't get it. You add part of the chord symbol as a chord symbol and part of it (the 7) as text?
Old 13th December 2016 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Head
 
logicprose's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio ➡️
Sorry, didn't get it. You add part of the chord symbol as a chord symbol and part of it (the 7) as text?
Yes everything is a chord symbol except for the 7 which is text
Old 15th December 2016 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Head
 
logicprose's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Actually here is a better way which is all chords. You can clearly see that when I click on a portion of the chord - the entire chord gets highlighted.
Also walked through some transpositions so you could see them all change.

📝 Reply
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump