OK, I have had it with trying to find cheap alternatives, Line Audio CM3 being the last I bought and checked out. I have tried Oktavas MK012, Rode NT5, Shure KSM141, DPA4060, only to still lust for THE stereo SDC pair - something like Schoeps MK2/22/21 or DPA4006/11/15/03 or Sennheiser MKH8020/40...

I will very probably sell something quite valuable in the beginning of the next year and I am thinking of making this years' New Year's resolution to buy my first high-end SDC pair and no more trying to cheat with alternatives that don't work as I imagine they should.

No, I don't like the sound of DPA4060 as a main pair or in any close application either - they are usable as close and hidden pick up for live sound, yes, they are great for that, but I fail to hear what some other people hear in them. To me they sound small, thing and plastic compared to their big brothers.

I also don't like many current professional releases of classical music that sound too harsh, too thin, too "clear", with annoying chimes, piccolos, tubular bells, etc. that pierce your ears. I like to listen LOUD - at concert volumes - where the room rattles with timpani and gran cassa hits, you hear the "space" in pianissimo parts and the music envelops and hits you physically like in a live concert - and many of those "clear" recordings just don't work - they are way to unpleasant to be listened loud, but thank god there are still releases that are properly recorded, I just wish that professionals would refrain from using mics such as DPA 4060 as main pair and aiming at "clear" where you "can hear everything" and checking sound on low levels on some high-end cans, while those recordings, when blasted from a proper set of loudspeakers are way too "clear" and unpleasant... The depth, the weight, the blend, the MASS of sound is much more important to me than hearing each and every instrument in all their "presence", when I wish they would rather be blended into a compact and good sounding unity, which the orchestra or any group is - not a collection of instruments playing different lines...

Ok, never mind this sort-of-a-rant, back to the point...

So... I am thinking of getting either DPA4006 pair, but am not sure if TL version or not or maybe 4003 (what's the sonic difference?), or Schoeps MK2 or MK22 or Sennheiser MKH8020...

I wish for the mics to be as quiet as possible (DPA4060 are NOT, also Line Audio CM3 are not dead quiet either..., Shure ksm141 are, but sonically they can be on a "thin" side, not so refined as some others I used or wish to use in the future)

I only occasionally used Schoeps mics at a few live jazz gigs that featured a variety of those sweet mics and had a privilege of mixing live albums that were recorded with them and they ALWAYS worked, but I never used them privately for a longer time, I only drooled over many great sound examples here.
Sennheisers seem to be the most quiet, very versatile and reliable as I read, a lot of praise for them, they also won't hurt the wallet that much...Yet, is it really THE stereo pair I lust for? How do they compare to DPA 4003/6?

I never used the big DPA mics, I only had the DPA4060 pair to test and they were way to noisy and harsh - no "weight" in them - also not in the examples people posted around here. I miss the real heaviness of bottom end in all those examples and don't like the piercing treble - not really listenable at loud volumes.
BUT my hair raised the most on some of the recordings made with 4006 and 4011... I liked how they can drag you right there into the picture, with all the details, but no excessive harshness and a lot of weight "down there" - you can physically feel the instruments and the ambient/space in some of the good recordings... People comment on them as being "clinical", but I haven't heard that from the clips... but I also never used them myself... so I am clueless...

So... if I decide to spend between 2000 to 3500 EUR on a stereo mic pair. It has to be THE ONE... As I said those alternatives (Shure KSM141, Rode NT5, Line Audio CM3, DPA 4060) DIDN'T work for me (they work for specific tasks, but not as a main window into audio magic). My "gearlust" was not satisfied yet. I am still horny... heh

Any additional hints about those mics would be appreciated.

Any new additional direct comparisons - especially between the big DPAs, Schoeps and Sennheisers (omni or wide cardioid capsules preferably) would be appreciated, too.

I found some MK2 vs. 4006 comparison here, but the sound files don't work anymore.

I will probably not be able to rent all of those mics at once, so I have to decide which one to get and try out first... I can get DPA for rent probably, but they are also the most expensive, so I will do some reading and online listening before I bother the good people with sending me those mics...
I can't get Schoeps to rent at the moment, also not the Sennheisers...

What about Neumann KM100 series (131 capsule??)

And - if I can get an almost new Neumann M149 for around 2400 EUR (used), should I go for it with my preferences, and save for another later and have an amazing stereo pair? Does it work the same as M150 when switched to omni? Or would I be more happy with something like a pair of DPA4006s?

Still so many options, even when the alternatives were discarded...

Too bad I cannot rent all those mics at once for a week...

i have owned pairs of DPA 4011s and 4006s and 4061s and 4090s, Schoeps CMC6/mk4s, AKG C480/ck61s, neumann km140s and km184s, AT4051s and AT4022s, rode nt5s, gefell M300s, royer r121s, coles 4038s, beyer mc930s, adn have used many others such as neumann tlm170s, km131s, tlm193s, akg c414b-uls, sennheiser mkh40s, etc.

from my experience, the DPA 4011s were the most transparent and accurate. the schoeps had a nice round sound and were very nice as a main ORTF pair, though i found them a tad boomy as spot mics. the AKG c481s were nearly identical in sonic character to the DPA 4011s - very flat, fast, and transparent. the AT mics were excellent mics at mid-level cost, and i have recommended them to many folks. the gefell m300s are very similar to neumann km184s, but with a bit of low-mid bloom. the ribbons were all okay - smooth and warm, but in the end, i just prefer the sound of flat condensers. the mkh40s were all around excellent smooth mics, and i would expect a similar excellent sound from the newer mkh8040s.

of the omnis, i really love the DPA 4006s (clean, fast, accurate) and neumann km131s (warm, smooth, lovely). i always had pretty good results from the little dpa 4061s, and never really noticed any significant noise problems (usually the ambience of any live hall was way noisier than those mics). i still use a pair of dpa 4090s as spots and love them. i believe the mk2 omni capsule is perhaps the best cap made for the schoeps system, and would not hesitate to recommend those, but they are nearfield and may be too flat for micing larger groups - i have not used the mk21 or other caps, but i imagine the wide cards would be a very good choice. from what i have read, the senn mkh8020s are surely an excellent AB main pair.

LDC mics, like the akg c414, tlm170 and 193, can have a wonderful sound, though they tend to suffer a bit from slower transient response, and uneven off-axis response. i have seen many pros use an MS setup of 414s as their main mics, and the uls is an excellent spot mic for almost any acoustic instrument.

all that said, my favorite SDCs for main ORTF pair are the neumann km140s. while the DPA, schoeps, and senn models are all top quality mics, and you really cannot go wrong with any of them, there is just somethign about the neumann sound that seems, to my ears, to be the most musical and pleasing. at this level of mic, however, it is truly completely subjective, and you owe it to yourself to listen to them all before you throw down that kind of money.

I really loved my sennheiser 8020 pair that I recently VERY reluctantly sold to fund the purchase of a new vehicle. I will be buying them again ASAP. Rich and quiet, with the gorgeous halo you can only get from spaced omnis. These mics never once let me down. I've used them on everything from orchestras and wind bands, to solo piano and jazz quartets and bar gigs with rock bands. Highly recommended from me!

Omnis?

I love my Josephson C617SET mics and now you can get spherical baffles to give them an M50-like pattern. They are ghostly quiet and reach deeply into any source you throw at them, including whole rooms. The sound is complete, not tinny or thin (10 Hz – 20 kHz ±1 dB).

http://www.josephson.com/pdf/C617set_ds.pdf
Josephson SPB40 Baffle for the C617s - Interview at AES 2011 - YouTube

Another mic I've heard great things about is DPA's 4041 large diaphragm omni (24mm, 1 inch). Fred Forssell loves them. DPA sells a matched pair for different types of powering; the 3532-SP Large Diaphragm Stereo Kit works on 48v phantom. The capsule backplate is smaller than the diaphragm which reduces the negative effects of the diaphragm's edge. The diaphragm center is more pistonic, so it is said to capture transient dynamics more faithfully than other large capsule designs.

DPA Microphones :: Products

Cardiods?

I like Schoeps MK21, MK22 and MK4.
Gefell, Neumann and Sennheiser are also, of course, top contenders.

It sounds like you are where I was a few years ago. A couple of things I've learned
(a) flavors of mics are like flavors of ice cream... what I like isn't necessarily what you like. And
(b) some mic and pre combos go together symbiotically (like peanut butter and jelly), and some don't.

I've owned Pelusos, Earthworks, and AKG 480's. I tried ADK-TL's (not sdc's) and to my ears they are my favorites in the under $1k category and I kept them, but they are big and heavy I owned 414's for a while too. My ears preferred the ADK's over all of the above.

This year I finally said "just get it over with" and picked up some used Schoeps Mk4 and Gefell M200 series. When I bought the Schoeps I had high expectations, and I can't say I'm disappointed. Very handy with active cables and an ORTF bar, and if you have a decent room, they will pull a good tape, without much hype.

When I got the Gefells with M21 hyper caps, I didn't have high expectations, but I found myself completely blown away. I like them a lot. I've since gotten card caps. I can't explain "why" I like them, I just do.

If I had to sell one set and keep the other I'd probably sell the Schoeps and keep the Gefell's.

Just my 2 cents worth. Listen, think, and go with what sounds great to YOUR ears.

Just get a pair of Peluso P28's and be done with it. Amazing mics! Run em through a Sebatron Axis and some lynx converters and you'll be living the dream!

Sent from my DROID X2 using Gearslutz.com

I have Schoeps and Pearl microphones -- I usually prefer the sound of the Pearls.

Which is to say, you ought to investigate these fine Swedish microphones!

daivadisc

Which specific Pearls

Neumann, DPA, Schoeps. No other. For life.

I would add Sennheiser, Gefell and MBHO to this list.

Thanks for all the replies, I am leaning towards Schoeps MK2 after all, it is almost like being in love with a woman you can't have just yet and you date her approximations for years - other women that remind you of her - until one day you are finally able to make the move and start dating the one you always wanted - or something similarly kitchy...

I was also very flirtatious with Neumann KM131, maybe getting the KM140 pair and additional set of AK31 capsules if I could get a really good deal, which might be possible through some channels and I was also really curious about Sennheiser MKH8020, DPA seem a bit overpriced after all and I have the least ideas how they sound.

I have two Gefell 692 and 691 bodies for UM70 and another with M70 head, I also thought of maybe just buying another UM70 head, which can do also omni and sending everything to Gefell to get it up to date spec wise - since they are all vintage mics... but I don't know if they can do that to make the two mics equal enough to use as a stereo pair and even so I don't know if a stereo pair of UM70s in omni would work equally outstanding for the same purposes as Schoeps MK2 or Sennheiser MKH8020.

Gefell UM70 is one of the best mics I have ever had a chance to use for a longer period of time, it was an instant and ever going WOW effect - reliable for all sources - either cello, violin, different ethnic instruments, guitars - flamenco and rock, drums, percussion, vocals, spoken word... I guess a stereo pair might be wonderful, too.

it sounds as if you may be happiest with the schoeps. The dpa's are very real and present, the schoeps to me always impart a sort of creaminess to the sound that I dig.

N

Sorry, but you have not said:

- what kinds of music you record
- what kinds of venues you record in

...and even if we knew, there is still no such thing as an "ultimate" stereo pair. The finest makes have already been named, but beyond that it is a matter of taste and specific application. (BTW, my desert island mics are MK21, but they aren't ideal for everything. You seem to like the Schoeps vibe, so maybe a pair of MK5 would cover more bases for you...?)

Have a happy new year!

Thanks, yes I know there's no such thing as "ultimate", but I think it was possible to understand from the context what I meant. I mean - a very good, no compromise stereo set, most suitable for my preference. I explained a bit what that is.

I record mostly world music and jazz, but also some progressive pop/rock, a lot of percussion, since I am percussionist... I was recording a lot of African musicians and instruments lately and in the future this will very probably even expand - so, a lot of kora, ngoni, calabash, dunun, djembe, tama, udu drums, vocals, balafon, etc. There is real possibility that in the near future I will also record some choirs, small chamber orchestras and quartets, early music trios, duos, double bass and violin duets, singer songwriters, etc.

I use DAV BG1U preamp almost exclusively, just selling another preamp that I don't use anymore (TOFT ATC-2) to get another DAV BG1...

Lately I mostly record in the studio or in rather dry rooms (smaller clubs, ex-cinemas, etc.). But I have local access to a Church or two for occasional experiments, also to one very large empty industrial space with wooden roof construction and very interesting acoustics.

I will be doing live sound and recording for a series of world music concerts next year, featuring some big stars from all around the world, also some non-western classical music - Indian, Persian - maybe we'll even have Zakir Hussain if everything will work out, etc. with subtle complex instruments and I will use those mics to record some of the concerts, too. It will probably be a small open air venue (around 500 people) mostly.

I don't know about MK5, maybe I can start with MK2 and buy additional MK22 or 21 later... but Sennheisers MKH 8020/40 seem very interesting, too... only I haven't heard much of them. And never mixed anything recorded with them, yet.

I love that sort of "creamy" quality - a fat sound, that is not muddy - transient rich, but soft at the same time that Schoeps seem to provide. If that's the correct impression. I don't know if Sennheiser's have that kind of "magic", too.

Happy new year celebrations to all!

Wind ensemble samples I posted a while back using 8020s:

https://gearspace.com/board/remote-p...e-samples.html

Your descriptors ("fat", "quiet") might point me more toward Sennheisers. Noise is never a problem with Schoeps, but the Senns are dead quiet and put out a really hot signal. The low end on the 8020 is big. That said, I could not recommend JUST a pair of 8020 ... they are dark mics, esp when used at a distance.

I have Pearl CB, CC and CO 22s and ELM-Cs. The cardioid CC 22s get the most use, but the omni CO 22s are very nice; the CB 22s are bidirectional and are probably the planet's best kept secret. The ELM-Cs are more specialized and require care in placement -- but they're wonderful if you get them aimed appropriately.

daivadisc

MK21 is a great place to start. But, if you are mostly concerned with purchasing ONLY 1 pair of mics, I would go multi-pattern, such as the MKH8000. Do I prefer the sound to Schoeps, DPA ect? No, but you will be able to accomplish any stereo pattern which has it's value in being able to tame the room in any location recording.

The choice of the mics is mostly determined by what kinds of rooms you have available to you. Omni mics require a really good (not dry) acousticto sound good. Cardioid mics are more for universal use.

So first I would recommend getting a good pair of cardioid mics.
Schoeps CMC64 or the very special DPA 4012 high voltage (130volt) cardioid.
or
Sennheiser 8040. Please do investigage the DPA high voltage mics because these are very special and deserve consideration. Abandoning 48 volt phantom power has many advantages. Some that are heard are better dynamic range, more detailed stereo picture and better transient sounds.

Or get omni / cardioid switchable Schoeps CMC65 and have both patterns in one mic.

If you're rooms aren't good, then don't buy omni mics.

I agree with this. Some of the mics listed here (DPA, MKH8040) are extremely detailed and if you're not recording professional musicians, it may bring out performance flaws. I reach for Schoeps (MK2H or 4) when I need a natural but not too detailed ensemble sound. Especially in student or community situations.

Yes, I'm recording both - professional and not so professional musicians.

I always prefer a bit of flattery to complete honesty - speaking of sound recording of course.

I think that Schoeps CMC65 recommendation might be the right choice... I already use Shure KSM141 in a similar way - so if the Schoeps MK5 capsule will enable the same applications with yet a better overall sound - that would be IT... I would also like to get a MK41 later, since I do quite some radio production - radio plays, audio books, etc. and some dialogue recording for documentaries on occasion...

Does the MK5 sound equally good as MK4 and MK2 on their own?

DPA are wonderfull for antique baroque music, for instrument with string and fast attack transient as cavicembalo, arp, viola da gamba. Much details, very fast response, trasparent sound, full, but not sterile, very modern sound.
Listen Alia-Vox productions.

I was going to suggest just that. I have a pair of 131s and I like them a lot. I see no need for any further search for an omni pair....

D.

Greetings The Listener,

I think that the MK5 is a fantastic tool for anyone. I would suggest that your
question be, "is the MK 5 a great sounding capsule?" The answer is yes and many pros and Schoeps themselves have already qualified the MK5 for being a flexible tool and offering great sound.

Nothing more need be said.

I have only one 131 capsule for my KMD system and found it softer sounding compared to the Schoeps MK2, which I also own. The low frequencies seem to be a tad to undefined too. I'm fully aware of the differences but the kk133 (I have a matched pair) has so much better transient response in comparison.
What is your primary use for these capsules for liking them so much?

I use them as AB main mic.

D.

Everyone - do tell more about the kk133... (and audio clips never hurt either) and the new KM-A line from Neumann... Do I assume correctly that the knowledge of both Sennheiser and Neumann technology will and already is used in this line?

Why are those omnis special? How are they different from 131 or similar capsules from other companies? Are they only for the Decca tree?

Will the Sennheiser MKH capsules work on Neumann KM-A bodies?

The KK133 is basically the same titanium diaphragm capsule in a ball that is used in the TLM50 and the M150, but as a capsule for the KM-D and KM-A series - but this combination comes out much cheaper and is lighter if flying over an audience.

This is a Neumann mic. and nothing to do with Sennheiser. The Sennheiser MKH 8000 series heads are complete microphones, the Neumann KK are heads only. They are definitely *not* compatible with each other.

The Neumann KK133 *is* very special. It has a titanium diaphragm and, unlike the other Neumann ball diaphragms, the ball can be removed.

They are ideal for a Decca Tree (and Neumann will match threes on request), but they are great for other things as well.

I admit this thing was new to me...

BTW, there is an optional ball/sphere to be applied to the 131 or 130 capsules as well...

D.

Yes, I know about those balls - but the 133 was specifically designed with a ball as part of the capsule.

Yes, it's removable - and it's different from the ball that fits the KM 183 etc..

I realize there is a difference in structure and price, but what differences are there in sound between the KM-A series, and the KM-100 series with similar capsules?