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Zoom R16? Any experience or opinions?
Old 10th August 2009 | Show parent
  #61
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
How noisy is the unit ? Is it quiet like a PS2/PS3 video game console ?
Old 10th August 2009 | Show parent
  #62
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Completely silent. There are no fans or motors.
Old 10th August 2009 | Show parent
  #63
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
The R16 is definitely a great birthday present! I have no opinion on the H4N, but the R16 is a welcome relief from using a computer for recording. I have not abandoned PC recording by any means. I have a 16 track Presonus Firestudio-Digimax FS/laptop rig (and a Firebox) for mobile recording and a DAW with a Lynx 2c soundcard for mix/mastering...the R16 is for me to write songs on...anywhere...if you are a songwriter with a DAW, you will quickly find the benefits of having the R16 as a tool.
Old 10th August 2009 | Show parent
  #64
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
What size card to get?

Hi All,

I just ordered the R16 online and now want to buy a card that is larger than the 1GB card it ships with. I can't find a chart on the Zoom or Samson site that gives expected recording times using various size cards like, if you have a 16GB card and record 8 tracks, you will get X number of minutes of recording time.

Does anyone know where to find such information?

Since the unit has not arrived, and I don't own any large capacity cards, I wanted to buy a card now so it will arrive when the R16 arrives.

Any users out there that have a 16GB card, for example, that can tell me approximately how much time I can expect to get when recording 8 mono tracks at the same time?

Thanks in advance for any help.

absound
Old 10th August 2009 | Show parent
  #65
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
1GB SD

16bit: 03:13
24bit: 02:08

You'll have to divide by the number of tracks you'll use in a project. With 8 tracks @ 16bit it'd be over 6 hours.
Old 11th August 2009 | Show parent
  #66
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Thank you for helping me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamon ➑️
For me the R16 blows the H4 away for writing songs.

The main reason is because the R16 has physical controls instead of a tiny thumbwheel. That thumbwheel slows down workflow and stifles creativity. It's much faster to push on a slider, click some buttons, and spin a wheel.

The other reason is that 4 tracks is not enough. You can bounce down, but in practice that takes way too long to keep up with the writing process.

With the R16 you're hitting large buttons to stop/rewind/play/record, and moving faders to mix tracks. Click, spin a wheel, and you're panning. Hold down, spin again, and your vocals have reverb. It's fast enough to allow creativity to flow.

There's some problems, but when they are fixed the R16 will be an extremely amazing device. For individual recording artists the R16 replaces the role of the PC. Just plug in some instruments or use the mics and you're all set.

It's surprising how little talk there is right now. It's like a secret no one seems to know. For most of those people sitting in their rooms using a PC to record, the R16 is a dream machine. It feels so much better to flip a switch and be ready to go, rather than hunting around with mice.

It'd definitely make a great birthday present for any recording artist.

Thank you for your input,I just saw a zoom hd 16 on ebay for $370,however i think with the added drum machine and bass etc that would complicate things for me.You have helped me make the decision to get the R 16.I was thinking the whole time about having faders rather than pushing buttons through menus,and you reinforced my feelings.Thanks again!


God bless,Ricos
Old 11th August 2009 | Show parent
  #67
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
absound...i got a 16gb card at staples for less than $40...rough estimate for recording is 1gb per hour for two tracks @ 24bit
Old 11th August 2009 | Show parent
  #68
Gear Addict
 
KingUgly's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Can someone go into detail on the implementation of the effects? How many effects can you use per channel? Do all the channels share the same effects? Does the master bus have it's own effects? It's a bit confusing. I tried reading the manual, but I figured one of you who has one already can explain it better.
Old 11th August 2009 | Show parent
  #69
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
There are 2 buttons, Send and Insert.

There are 2 Send FX slots, one for Reverb, one for Chorus/Delay. You can adjust the wet send level for all tracks, for both FX. That means you could have Reverb and Chorus on every track.

The Insert is a single slot, and has a big list of all the standard Zoom FX. You select an effect, and route it somewhere. You can put it on a track, input, or master. But you only get 1 at a time.

For more FX you need to bounce the track with the FX. Or apply it to an input before you record.

So if you set a guitar amp FX to Input 1, you can record that, then change it to a master compressor.

It'd be nice if there were more inserts available, but it works.
Old 11th August 2009 | Show parent
  #70
Gear Addict
 
KingUgly's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks, much better than the manual!
Old 12th August 2009 | Show parent
  #71
Here for the gear
 
alotawatts's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Newbie here:
I am ready to pull the buying trigger on an R16 but this issue with latency has me curious. I will primarily be doing standalone multitracking with it. Any comments...on the tracking / monitoring delay ?
thx
Zoom R16 latency - Γ‰Λ†amÑ»n.name
Old 12th August 2009 | Show parent
  #72
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Most of the FX don't have any major latency when used on inputs. When you speak into the microphone and monitor on headphones, it pretty much feels like your voice, rather than the delayed slapback often experienced with a PC. But there seems to be differing delay depending on the FX used. Some sound realtime, some seem to have delay.

I was going to measure the monitored latency, but haven't done it yet because it doesn't seem like it's going to be a number large enough to matter. The recorded latency is more important because it's recorded in the final mix. Also, if it's true the latency is different depending on which FX is used, lots of them would have to be measured.

There might be technical reasons not understood, but it seems like Zoom should be able to fix the lack of recorded latency compensation in a firmware update. As long as the latency is consistent, and calculable, it seems all they have to do is not write the first X samples to the recorded .wav.

But if they don't you can always pretend it's perfect. If you ever hit a problem because of it, at least you'll know why, and could always trim the .wav yourself after recording. It'd be tedious, but would solve the problem.

Another thing to think about is, was the test accurate? Did you look at the method and think about it? Maybe it was designed poorly, and overlooked something that renders the results meaningless. Or maybe that unit was defective; has anyone repeated it using their R16?
Old 12th August 2009 | Show parent
  #73
MCK
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Just ordered an R16. Great sharing on this thread and analysis by Jamon. Kudos!!!
Old 13th August 2009 | Show parent
  #74
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Greetings,

Have a question on the speed of accessing tracks on R16 when using a commercially bought CD instrumental tracks. Let me try to explain, since I am new to this form.

Right now for Choral Musical Rehearshals, the Choir Director will simply give me a CD track NUMBER and I'm able to access the CD track very quickly.

Could the instrumental music on the CD be copied to the R16 along with the track markings?? Or, would I have to manually add track markings?? How easy/quickly would I be able to access a particular track then on the R16??

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Art G.
Old 13th August 2009 | Show parent
  #75
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
You could use EAC (Exact Audio Copy) free software to rip the CD to .wav files, one for each track, in a folder for each CD, like "Instrumental CD A/Track 1.wav".

Keep all your instrumentals on a small USB drive. Then plug the drive into your R16, and use the USB Load tool to scroll through the files.

You'll be able to quickly select any CD, then scroll through the track numbers to find the one you need. Then hit the buttons to confirm loading, and go into the File section to assign the instrumental .wav to a track in your R16 project.

From there you can play it and record stuff on top.
Old 14th August 2009 | Show parent
  #76
Here for the gear
 
alotawatts's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamon ➑️
Most of the FX don't have any major latency when used on inputs. Also, if it's true the latency is different depending on which FX is used, lots of them would have to be measured.
So the latency is only with effects ? ...........me=confused...
Old 14th August 2009 | Show parent
  #77
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
There is monitoring latency, and there is recorded latency.

With monitoring latency, what you input is delayed from what you hear in the headphones. The Zoom R16 doesn't have a noticeable problem with this. Everything sounds tight, except that there seems to be some latency with some of the wilder FX. Like the F to M pitch changer, which has to process time, so there's some latency between when you speak and hear your voice.

Then there is recorded latency, where the file you record has a small delay before what you input is written in time. If you record yourself saying, "Sync", on track 1, there will be a .wav like this:

[_______________//\\///\/\/\\___________________]

Now if you go to track 2, and record yourself saying the same exact thing the same exact way at the same exact time you hear it being played back you'll get a second .wav like this:

[__________________//\\///\/\/\\___________________]

Then when you rewind and play the project back, they aren't exactly in sync:

[_______________//\\///\/\/\\___________________]
[__________________//\\///\/\/\\___________________]

This is true with computers too, but the software calculates the latency and automatically offsets the 2nd wav back in time so they sync:

[_______________//\\///\/\/\\___________________]
[_______________//\\///\/\/\\___________________]

But the Zoom R16 doesn't seem to do that, or does it incorrectly. That's recorded latency, or lack of post-record latency correction.

The delay is tiny, around a millisecond. But in some situations it can cause some issues. Such small delays can be heard, and they change the sound by interacting differently with other waves.

So in a typical home environment, maybe you did some performance that was perfect and interacted with the previous tracks you heard in your headphones in a way that just totally nailed it and made some rich tonal quality. Then you play it back, and it's there, but it's missing something. Maybe that slight offset misaligned things in just a way to change the overall signature sound. It's not exactly the same as you performed it.

Then there's the timing drift, which is like a wobble of rythm. If you had a perfect source making sounds in perfect repetitious times, it would not be evenly aligned in that grid form when recorded and played back on the R16. It would stretch and change timing randomly, ever so slightly. So slight that if you recorded a complete song, it wouldn't be very noticeable, it'd just become part of the style of the music.

But if you did something like record audio on the R16 to try and add to video later, it wouldn't match perfectly, and things could happen like lips no longer syncing with words being spoken. You'd try to fix it with timestretch tools, but since it's random you can't really make it fit everywhere. If you stretched it to fit at the ends, the middle would be off, etc.

Hopefully that makes it clearer. I assumed people knew what these things were without really explaining it in depth.
Old 14th August 2009 | Show parent
  #78
Lives for gear
 
Saudade's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamon ➑️
Then there's the timing drift, which is like a wobble of rythm. If you had a perfect source making sounds in perfect repetitious times, it would not be evenly aligned in that grid form when recorded and played back on the R16. It would stretch and change timing randomly, ever so slightly. So slight that if you recorded a complete song, it wouldn't be very noticeable, it'd just become part of the style of the music.

But if you did something like record audio on the R16 to try and add to video later, it wouldn't match perfectly, and things could happen like lips no longer syncing with words being spoken. You'd try to fix it with timestretch tools, but since it's random you can't really make it fit everywhere. If you stretched it to fit at the ends, the middle would be off, etc.
Are you 100% sure about this??? You make the R16 sound like some cassette 4 tracker where tape speed and stretch is never constant
Old 14th August 2009 | Show parent
  #79
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Smile Thanks.

Jamon...Thanks for your help in copying a CD. Art G.
Old 14th August 2009 | Show parent
  #80
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
No, I'm never 100% sure about anything. That's why I published the method used, so others can repeat it or review why it's flawed.

http://jamon.name/zoom+r16+timing

This is the latest test of timing drift, designed to illustrate it better. Click on the fast .wav file, and listen with headphones. Watch your left/right meters too for visual effect.

If it had perfect consistent timing throughout, then you should hear a constant ticking pattern that never changes. But it does change. It shifts all over the place seemingly at random.

It's very slight changes, but ya, it wobbles as if it were tape. At one point everything seems to align for a brief period, and you hear some ticks that sound united and in time, then it drifts again.

That sound field is like 8 columns spaced evenly around 180 degrees, all playing separate ticks. So if they all played exactly the same it'd be like a blanket as they all came together as one.

But instead I hear emphasis dancing all around, as the columns drift in time. If a column is slightly faster than the others, it grabs attention first, but then it slows down and another picks up.

For music I'm starting to like the idea that maybe this will add life to recordings. Even if you record a drum loop, which is boring and monotonous, it is shifting enough for slight variance.

It's not drastic enough to be obvious in music, only in sync applications like video. But it might be enough wobble to give the sound a color, like how record players have subtle noise.

I don't know if there's much truth to that, but it's a nice spin on what otherwise would be considered a flaw.
Old 14th August 2009 | Show parent
  #81
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
That's interesting. Is that a noticeable effect in other recording situations? I'd imagine that would be distracting if someone were recording chamber music. Also, I was thinking this could work as a surround sound recorder on the cheap (or last resort backup). Would that mess up the spatial effect? Do you notice it messes with your stereo recordings?

Is this only noticeable with the metronome? It could be a way to keep the metronome standing out from the mix. I don't hear one track going faster than the other; they seem to still be in sync all the way to the end. But it could be as you said, one is taking turns leading the other by a micro second.
Old 15th August 2009 | Show parent
  #82
Here for the gear
 
alotawatts's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
oldschool

From what I see you can't midi sync a drum machine but can you defeat the metronome and just do an initial click track(file) with a beatbox and avoid latency ?
Old 15th August 2009 | Show parent
  #83
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
You can import any .wav, a click track, or looped beat. It doesn't affect the latency though, which doesn't have anything to do with the metronome.

It's useful. Since there's no MIDI sync, you can make an instrumental separate on MPC, bounce to .wav, USB Load to R16, and you have a rhythm track.

If you make changes, just assign the new file instead and it updates seamlessly with whatever else you recorded.

You can't outsmart the lack of latency correction because it's relative to whatever is played back. You can offset a click track .wav all you want, but as soon as you record something on top while listening to the click, your performance will be recorded with a ms delay.

The only trick that'd work is to play early exactly 58 samples. If you normally would've struck a chord at 58 samples, do it at 0 instead. But that's crazy. Just don't worry about latency correction until Zoom fixes it. That info is more for them to know what to fix.

If someone doesn't already know why the timing issues would affect them in their type of use, then it probably won't affect them.
Old 15th August 2009 | Show parent
  #84
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Minimum PC Reuirements for R16

Hi all.... I just joined this forum. Does anyone know what the minimum PC requirements are for the R16 and Cubase? I have a HP 2710p tablet laptop that I use primarily for business. 1.2ghz and 3gb of ram running WinXP. Is this laptop powerful enough?

Thanks!
Mark
Old 16th August 2009 | Show parent
  #85
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
This latency trainer should put the timing test numbers in perspective.
Old 16th August 2009 | Show parent
  #86
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Hi Jamon,

Did your recording latency test on the HD16, see the zoom forum for details...

Any idea what codec i need to see your latency trainer movie?
I do hear the sound but have no picture!

Grtz

Henky
Old 16th August 2009 | Show parent
  #87
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
x264. The Combined Community Codec Pack is an easy way to get all the major codecs.
Old 17th August 2009 | Show parent
  #88
Here for the gear
 
aaastronomer's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamon ➑️
No, I'm never 100% sure about anything. That's why I published the method used, so others can repeat it or review why it's flawed.

Zoom R16 timing - Γ‰Λ†amÑ»n.name

This is the latest test of timing drift, designed to illustrate it better. Click on the fast .wav file, and listen with headphones. Watch your left/right meters too for visual effect.

If it had perfect consistent timing throughout, then you should hear a constant ticking pattern that never changes. But it does change. It shifts all over the place seemingly at random.

It's very slight changes, but ya, it wobbles as if it were tape. At one point everything seems to align for a brief period, and you hear some ticks that sound united and in time, then it drifts again.

That sound field is like 8 columns spaced evenly around 180 degrees, all playing separate ticks. So if they all played exactly the same it'd be like a blanket as they all came together as one.

But instead I hear emphasis dancing all around, as the columns drift in time. If a column is slightly faster than the others, it grabs attention first, but then it slows down and another picks up.

For music I'm starting to like the idea that maybe this will add life to recordings. Even if you record a drum loop, which is boring and monotonous, it is shifting enough for slight variance.

It's not drastic enough to be obvious in music, only in sync applications like video. But it might be enough wobble to give the sound a color, like how record players have subtle noise.

I don't know if there's much truth to that, but it's a nice spin on what otherwise would be considered a flaw.
i could only make out the variance at 4x. i guess the unit's good-to-go for field recording.
Old 19th August 2009 | Show parent
  #89
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Shureman

I'm new at this forum stuff. Don't know the etiquette.

There's been a lot of great technical tips posted (My hat's off to Jamon), but would it be declasse if I attached a short mp3 file of my first recording mix I attempted with the the r16. It's a live New Orleans jazz quartet recorded about 3 weeks ago. The sound quality is way better than I would have expected for a unit this inexpensive, especially since set-up time was only 15 minutes - something impossible with anything I owned before.

I'd definitely enjoy hearing some of your mixed r16 musical files, with your miking and mixdown info included. I'd be especially interested in some before and after examples of effects added, specifically large hall reverb.

Shureman.
Old 20th August 2009 | Show parent
  #90
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
I'm sure people want to hear your mix. I don't know anything about etiquette on this forum, but I do know I'd prefer to hear flac/wav.

Everyone please email [email protected] and ask for post-record latency correction to be added to the next firmware update.

For now, you can use the file editing tools to divide by the first millisecond and re-assign the 2nd part of the file, but that's tedious and imperfect.
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