Quantcast
Small comparison Forssell SMP-2 vs. RME Micstasy - Tabla samples - Page 2 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Small comparison Forssell SMP-2 vs. RME Micstasy - Tabla samples
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #31
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebar;4362297
[B
A stereo recording always represents also a point source better than a mono recording.[/B]

Back to the comparison of microphones, preamps, cnverters: I prefer to do stereo recordings for comparisons. Because of the better representation of even a point source in stereo, you also can hear the very small differences in sound better than in a mono recording.
Big AMEN to that.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebar ➡️
A stereo recording always represents also a point source better than a mono recording..
If you are only recording that one point source (solo flute, violin, etc.), no doubt. But my approach to the usual Indian Classical Music setup would be different and does not require two Tabla mics. I maintain that it is musically and technically not stereo... But obviously I'm not propagating mono recordings. I would just create stereo differently here.

turtlejon has a point, but that may apply to "fusion" stuff more than to classical repertoire recordings.

Quote:
Because of the better representation of even a point source in stereo, you also can hear the very small differences in sound better than in a mono recording.
Could you specify why stereo provides a "better" representation per se? If it's only about one close-miced source and a comparison between two mics, I don't see a compelling reason. Dealing with stereo setup issues may distract.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #33
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
Could you specify why stereo provides a "better" representation per se? If it's only about one close-miced source and a comparison between two mics, I don't see a compelling reason. Dealing with stereo setup issues may distract.
Stereo is a natural way how the ears are perceiving any sound (unlike mono - unless you have only one ear available).

With 2 channels stereo recording many important factors come out: 3D soundstage, depth, balanced stereo field and width, interaction between the two channels, various levels of details etc. - and all of that makes a real full sound, as we normally perceive it. That's why comparing preamps makes a real sense only if done in stereo. Mono gives VERY limited and unrealistic sound result and it is very likely that most preamps will sound basically very similar with that low level of details and deformed or non existing soundstage that mono recording provides.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
Prick Up UR Ears's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
Stereo is a natural way how the ears are perceiving any sound (unlike mono - unless you have only one ear available).

With 2 channels stereo recording many important factors come out: 3D soundstage, depth, balanced stereo field and width, interaction between the two channels, various levels of details etc. - and all of that makes a real full sound, as we normally perceive it. That's why comparing preamps makes a real sense only if done in stereo. Mono gives VERY limited and unrealistic sound result and it is very likely that most preamps will sound basically very similar with that low level of details and deformed or non existing soundstage that mono recording provides.

this only is true for distant miking especially with omnis, but definitely NOT when doing close miking, especially with cardioids...

and what ever you try tell us, a hit on a tabla IS a monophonic soundSOURCE - the perception of it, however, is something different!
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #35
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
Stereo is a natural way how the ears are perceiving any sound
Really? Interesting, didn't know that...


Not the point here IMHO... When I want to compare two mics on a source close-up, I don't care about 3D or the sound stage etc. And I don't even want any "interaction between the two channels".
Also, what "various levels of details" would a good mic and preamp lose when used mono? Why would one preamp sound more different from another with stereo than with mono signals? Does the preamp know anything about stereo? Each individual channel is mono, and does not have a soundstage or so. That's a matter of the mic placement...

I would obviously not try to compare two mics in mono on a recording that actually involves the room (i.e. of an ensemble of some kind) and the way the mics represent it - but this is entirely different.

Also, as I said, I simply did not have four identical mics, but I did want to have the exact same signal (unlike in your comparisons).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prick Up UR Ears ➡️
and what ever you try tell us, a hit on a tabla IS a monophonic soundSOURCE - the perception of it, however, is something different!
Ivo is referring to the fact that there are two drums - but the are very close together and not independent, so no need for separate mics IMHO.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Cannot help - even a single drum (tabla of whatever) is a stereo source, unless it has zero size and volume. If it has a size and volume bigger than zero, all of that becomes a sound source and from each point the sound comes to our two ears - to each one in slightly different time and that makes the way how everything in this world sounds for us.

It sounds quite different to record a single drum on one mic or on a stereo pair (in whatever configuration). Only in the latter case it starts sounding full and real ... be it djeme, darbooka or whatever

For me, tabla is not a mono source, neither is mridangam, ghattam or pakhawaj. In general - I would take recording of Indian classical music and the "habbits" or tradition of doing that with a grain of salt. Now it is maybe better, but most of Indian classical music, great performers, had been quite ruined by the way it was recorded in India in the past - mostly horrible. I have TONS and TONS of it at home ... On one hand I enjoy the masters, at the same time I suffer how terribly it sounds ... (and even at that time it was easily possible to record it 100 times better). Any inovation, not following the Indian recording tradition is therefore very much welcome Slightly OT, sorry.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #37
Gear Maniac
 
Prick Up UR Ears's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
When I want to compare two mics on a source close-up, I don't care about 3D or the sound stage etc. And I don't even want any "interaction between the two channels".
+1


Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
Ivo is referring to the fact that there are two drums
I gathered that, but it doesn't make Ivo's statement more true... does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
- but the are very close together and not independent, so no need for separate mics IMHO.
well, basically you have two quasi point sources being close. Now it depends on the distance you are "listening" (capturing) with your mic if it makes more or less difference to a single spot-source or 2 separate spot-sources.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #38
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
Cannot help - even a single drum (tabla of whatever) is a stereo source, unless it has zero size and volume. If it has a size and volume bigger than zero, all of that becomes a sound source and from each point the sound comes to our two ears - to each one in slightly different time and that makes the way how everything in this world sounds for us.
The room makes that, not the instrument in this case. Compared to the physical dimensions of an orchestra, choir, organ, or even piano, the Tabla is by all means a point source.

Quote:
Now it is maybe better, but most of Indian classical music, great performers, had been quite ruined by the way it was recorded in India in the past - mostly horrible. I have TONS and TONS of it at home ...
Me, too - over 300 LPs etc. And you know, some of the old EMI LPS are superb in their simplicity - even in mono. They do show the limitations of the recording medium (tape) etc., but as far as detail and such is concerned, they are often very good. They've got "soul"... Have you got Nikhil Banerjee's Jaunpuri/Mand by any chance? One prime example IMHO (can't speak for possible CD remastering).

Quote:
Any inovation, not following the Indian recording tradition is therefore very much welcome Slightly OT, sorry.
I find most attmempts to record ICM with ambient mics (i.e. without close-up mics) highly unconvincing, patricularly older Nimbus stuff (ridiculous... ), also Water Lily to some extent. And many recordings that were made in top-notch western studios simply suffer from the complete lack of knowledge of the engineers regarding Indian Music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prick Up UR Ears ➡️
well, basically you have two quasi point sources being close. Now it depends on the distance you are "listening" (capturing) with your mic if it makes more or less difference to a single spot-source or 2 separate spot-sources.
My point precisely.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
Prick Up UR Ears's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
The room makes that, not the instrument in this case. Compared to the physical dimensions of an orchestra, choir, organ, or even piano, the Tabla is by all means a point source.
exactly
the only 'multiple source' instrument (relatively broad base) which comes to my mind is the organ - but again, it very much depends on the distance of listening-/reception-point - all the "rest" is 'just' the acoustic property of the surrounding space, but NOT of the instrument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
My point precisely.
I know
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #40
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prick Up UR Ears ➡️
ll the "rest" is 'just' the acoustic property of the surrounding space, but NOT of the instrument.
More or less - one definite exception i can think of is an accordion...
I've recorded someone playing Cage and Satie (great...), and the stereo spread was amazing... But of course, the room did matter, too.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #41
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Even in anechoic chamber, there would be a clear difference between mono and stereo recording of any instrument
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Maniac
 
Prick Up UR Ears's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
More or less - one definite exception i can think of is an accordion...
I've recorded someone playing Cage and Satie (great...), and the stereo spread was amazing...
well, depends on the distance (again) and the position (well, normally turned to the audience) how it is played - just think of a marimba or vibraphone - but true, accordion can be pretty "stereo" (when being reasonably close to it)
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #43
Gear Maniac
 
Prick Up UR Ears's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
Even in anechoic chamber, there would be a clear difference between mono and stereo recording of any instrument
sure it will, but not because of the "stereo" source (which a single slap never will be), just due to runtime and phase issues making this mono source locatable.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #44
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Stereo is a much better test of preamps and mics because the subtleties of small arrival time difference between channels shows up the quality of the frequency response and phase response of the preamp and mic. The ears are designed to detect small L/R differences and minute changes in the time domain, for positioning sound sources, and a better quality preamp and mic will faithfully reproduce this transient information. None of this is available or heard in a mono recording.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #45
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
Even in anechoic chamber, there would be a clear difference between mono and stereo recording of any instrument
With a coincident setup at a bit of a distance, there is likely to be very little difference. But why would stereo automatically sound "full and real"? What explanation would you have? And what ""various levels of details" would mono lose just because it's mono...


Daniel
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Maniac
 
Prick Up UR Ears's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt ➡️
Stereo is a much better test of preamps and mics because the subtleties of small arrival time difference between channels shows up the quality of the frequency response
interesting believe

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt ➡️
and phase response of the preamp
this is (at least somewhat) true. Although its its not the phase response, but the phase coherency of the involved channels... well, only if you supply 2 (or more) channels with the same signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt ➡️
The ears are designed to detect small L/R differences and minute changes in the time domain,
Wrong, its the brain which detects it, the ears are just the receptors

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt ➡️
for positioning sound sources, and a better quality preamp and mic will faithfully reproduce this transient information.
Transients reproduction has NOTHING to do with stereo or mono

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt ➡️
None of this is available or heard in a mono recording.
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #47
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt ➡️
Stereo is a much better test of preamps and mics because the subtleties of small arrival time difference between channels shows up the quality of the frequency response and phase response of the preamp and mic. The ears are designed to detect small L/R differences and minute changes in the time domain, for positioning sound sources, and a better quality preamp and mic will faithfully reproduce this transient information. None of this is available or heard in a mono recording.
It cannot be said any better .... For sure, even a single slap is stereo, as long as the whole drum skin and body resonate (and they do)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prick Up UR Ears ➡️

Wrong, its the brain which detects it, the ears are just the receptors

And what is the point ? Yes, they are stereo receptors and the brain decodes the signals Similarly like with eyes. If you have just one eye, you would not be able to perceive 3D space, no perspective, you would not be able to detect any distance ... Simply mono heh
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #48
Gear Maniac
 
Prick Up UR Ears's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
It cannot be said any better .... For sure, even a single slap is stereo, as long as the whole drum skin and body resonate (and they do)



And what is the point ? Yes, they are stereo receptors and the brain decodes the signals Similarly like with eyes. If you have just one eye, you would not be able to perceive 3D space, no perspective, you would not be able to detect any distance ... Simply mono heh
well, ears (each ear IS MONO, the brain 'makes' it "stereo" afterwards...

but well, I noticed on many of your former statements and replies (not only on this topic), that you, you and only YOU are right, any anyone else is wrong - be happy with it...but it doesn't make it more true the more often you repeat wrong things.

Case closed, at least for me, as it is a waste of time to discuss believers believes
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #49
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
It cannot be said any better .... For sure, even a single slap is stereo, as long as the whole drum skin and body resonate (and they do).
Unless your nose is actually touching the drum, do you think you would ever be able to hear the difference between the left and right side of that skin? What's the point about a stereo angle of 2 or 3 degrees...?

Quote:
If you have just one eye, you would not be able to perceive 3D space, no perspective, you would not be able to detect any distance ... Simply mono heh
True, but even that only works up to a certain distance, then the angle becomes too small. Taka a hypothetical spherical object (so you have no clue about its real size) in a hypothetical empty hall (sort of something like a visually anechoic room...). You may be able to tell whether the thing is 50 cm or 1 m away from you, but without knowing the real size, could you tell whether it's 5 or 10 m away (with no optical clues around you)? Don't think so...
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #50
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prick Up UR Ears ➡️
well, ears (each ear IS MONO, the brain 'makes' it "stereo" afterwards...

but well, I noticed on many of your former statements and replies (not only on this topic), that you, you and only YOU are right, any anyone else is wrong - be happy with it...but it doesn't make it more true the more often you repeat wrong things.
You see, first - we are not discussing some subjective feelings (that may differ), but objective, scientific facts, that are also based on an experience. If you have some new discoveries and facts that would change the present ones, please share them. Saying "wrong", "it is your belief" etc. does not say anything. Second - "each ear IS MONO, the brain 'makes' it "stereo" afterwards... - sure, but these are technical details, the result is the same, right ? If we go into details, it is not the whole brain, that is involved but just some specific parts etc. - but this is not the point .... SImply, my experience is exactly the same as for example David's or Adebar's ... I will pass them your message

Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
Unless your nose is actually touching the drum, do you think you would ever be able to hear the difference between the left and right side of that skin? What's the point about a stereo angle of 2 or 3 degrees...?
What about AB 40 cm apart above the drum ?
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #51
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
but this is not the point ....
Then what is the point? I would say that even if the stereo effect you claim existed (as a result of the instrument, not the room), it would be too small to be noticeable, at least from any realistic listener's distance... I'm afraid I can't quite follow the scientific facts you base your arguments on.

You are also contradicting yourself a bit. You said "But, of course, it is not a question of spreading them extreme L/R when mixing. As David says, even a small stereo would always sound better than a plain mono.". Now that's certainly not what you are referring to with a "full and realistic" sounding recording of a djembe or whatever - I'm sure you'd use full stereo here, would you not?

Unless you are using two Tabla close-up or spot mics in XY, panning them together may in fact cause phase issues, esp. with a percussive signal like this, I would think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
What about AB 40 cm apart above the drum ?
This might exaggerate the potential stereo spread of the instrument as such - it would also be stereo because of the room more than because of the instrument, I would say.

If one were to really just record a single drum (or set as in Tabla/Conga) and nothing else with a one-point-stereo, a setup like this might work well - but I'm referring to something completely different, as my approach to ICM would always be close-miced (maybe with an additional ambient mic in a good room, but reverse to the main mic plus spots approach).

Daniel
Old 10th July 2009 | Show parent
  #52
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️
Then what is the point?
The point is that we perceive the sounds by two receptors, i.e. stereo. To say that also brain is participating is not changing the point, it is just more detailed explanation of the same thing


Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu ➡️

You are also contradicting yourself a bit. You said "But, of course, it is not a question of spreading them extreme L/R when mixing. As David says, even a small stereo would always sound better than a plain mono.". Now that's certainly not what you are referring to with a "full and realistic" sounding recording of a djembe or whatever - I'm sure you'd use full stereo here, would you not?
I think our discussion progressed to more general level of thoughts since then - whether or not a stereo rendering of a sound source is more realistic and more detailed than mono.

As for your question - if you listen to more instruments at a time, you don't perceive each as a solo instrument in an independent space, but each of them occupies a certain part of the stage. What David says, sounds right to me. Another question is recording a solo instrument ...

And yes, even a small stereo sounds better than mono, since each instrument radiates a different type of sounds and sound spectrum at its different points (look at violin etc., or tabla ). Recording that on just one mic naturally misses a part of the real sound. Correct me if I am wrong
Old 22nd July 2009 | Show parent
  #53
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
OT but... Should we record voice in stereo??? Serious question that I've thought about for a while... Does anybody do this?! If so, what method?

It's all about the recording at the end of the day, coming into our room through a pair of speakers, so emulating reality is a bit pointless - maybe better to go for something more artistic...
Old 22nd July 2009 | Show parent
  #54
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
heh
Attached Thumbnails
Small comparison Forssell SMP-2 vs. RME Micstasy - Tabla samples-82292-004-29bcb416.jpg  
Old 22nd July 2009 | Show parent
  #55
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hi Ivo. I think they are setup like that for redundancy rather than a decent stereo effect. Imagine, in that broadcast, if a single mic had failed.
Old 22nd July 2009 | Show parent
  #56
Gear Maniac
 
Prick Up UR Ears's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Ivo,



total misunderstanding of dual miking (for safety reasons)

unbelievable that this ... is still going on and on
Old 23rd July 2009 | Show parent
  #57
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prick Up UR Ears ➡️
Ivo,



total misunderstanding of dual miking (for safety reasons)

unbelievable that this ... is still going on and on
Don't take the things so serious ... it was just a joke
Old 23rd July 2009 | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek ➡️
And yes, even a small stereo sounds better than mono, since each instrument radiates a different type of sounds and sound spectrum at its different points (look at violin etc., or tabla ). Recording that on just one mic naturally misses a part of the real sound. Correct me if I am wrong
I think that is more about missing room information.

But sure, the bigger the instrument and the closer the listening distance the more of a spread of the instrument itself making a mono-approach less than ideal.

But, if you record a small source in mono and play it back on a pair of speakers there will still be a stereo listening sort of since you have two speakers that excites the room differently. The funky stuff happens when you record at a distance so you capture much of the room sound, that will sound very unnatural with all early reflections and ambience coming from the middle of the sound stage.

One close up mono mic with a distant wide ambience pair can give a natural sensation.. is that stereo or mono? :-)


/Peter
Old 23rd July 2009 | Show parent
  #59
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prick Up UR Ears ➡️
...
unbelievable that this ... is still going on and on
I'm glad this is still going on, probably needs it's own thread though, I think it's a really interesting subject.

Going way back to the original point Ivo made about using stereo mics to evaluate a preamp makes a lot of sense, regardless of how you would normally mic something up. Many more subtleties available for comparison.

Also, many thanks to Daniel for posting the samples in the first place!!! Great to have this test.

Just make sure you do it better next time! (joking!)
Old 23rd July 2009 | Show parent
  #60
Lives for gear
 
The Listener's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
The sound of Indian tabla in India = Shure SM58, mono, positioned between tabla and bayan.

Slightly more seriously - I liked the Forsell example, I am not sure if 414 would be the ultimate choice (I had some condenser success with Shure SM81 and Gefell UM70 set to cardioid - each separate as a mono close mic on different occasions), but for getting the optimal balance between both "parts" of this instrument I do agree it is best to record it (if we are talking close micing) with 1 mic and I would add additional ambience pair for "stereo" if this would be tabla solo album... (or general ambience pair for classical duo or group of musicians and use (mono) close mic as spot-mic)

But for more contemporary ("fusion") scenarios I am quite pleased with using dynamic mics - I can live with using only sm58 and similar, but for stronger bayan sound it is also good to use two mics, like in this example - beta58 on tabla and Beyerdynamic M99 on bayan through very average Yamaha 01 mixer preamps, through E-MU1820M converters... There is some bleed from other instruments (it was recorded in one big hall...). It is unprocessed of course.

tabla clip

Last edited by The Listener; 23rd July 2009 at 08:45 PM.. Reason: adding details
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 0 views: 1387
Avatar for Lusitano
Lusitano 11th November 2006
replies: 345 views: 79827
Avatar for AB3
AB3 13th May 2021
replies: 52 views: 17009
Avatar for Deleted 4373f97
Deleted 4373f97 23rd April 2019
replies: 60 views: 29035
Avatar for SEA
SEA 21st August 2015
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump