Gearspace.com

Gearspace.com (https://gearspace.com/board/)
-   All Things Technical (https://gearspace.com/board/all-things-technical/)
-   -   New Zoom Recorder Announced: Zoom F4 (https://gearspace.com/board/all-things-technical/1110844-new-zoom-recorder-announced-zoom-f4.html)

surflounge 6th September 2016 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnorman (Post 12118987)
So if you can't afford a SD or nagra, you can't be a real engineer? I call BS on that.

a sound engineer works on a recording set with a SD 788 and gets the job done.

Plush 6th September 2016 11:53 PM

Let's get a couple of things clear here because people are putting words in my mouth. They are making assumptions about my intent.

I get hundreds of private messages here and I answer almost all of them. People asking questions and seeking advice about equipment, etiquette on the job, how to proceed in getting better etc. So I try to help each of them.

I teach recording to new people and I try to help each of them. I take them on big jobs with me and I show them everything I am doing.
I answer all their questions.

I am not afraid of beginners or intermediates or experts taking my work. It does happen but it is nothing to get excited about. They always come back to me.

I am not arguing or proposing to use expensive gear here. I am arguing and warning against cheap digital.

I dislike cheap digital because it sounds harsh and it has fake detail and a fake sound.

That is my point in this thread.

This new box is just more cheap digital.

These makers are not interested in good sound. They are in commerce.

Don't anyone here use cheap digital.

I just saved you ten years of using shid.

OzGizmo 6th September 2016 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plush (Post 12117319)
There is nothing worse than cheap digital. Cheap pocketbook equals cheap sound. Chinese Junque.

While I have to agree about Chinese made.... Zoom recorders are Japanese made, the same country that brings you Sanken microphones, Canare cable, Nikon and Cannon lenses & cameras, Sony and Panasonic broadcast systems.

PuebloAudio 7th September 2016 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plush (Post 12119307)
...I am not arguing or proposing to use expensive gear here. I am arguing and warning against cheap digital….

I just saved you ten years of using shid.

For sure.

I hope readers will recognize the value of this advice.

Those who heed may avoid being in "time out"; stuck in the tar pit of equipment mediocrity.
Mediocrity which, like a speed governor, can hinder the growth of one's technique and craft.

2manyrocks 7th September 2016 01:22 AM

The last post in the F8 thread was 4-5 months ago. If the F8 caught on around here, I must have missed it.

JamesClark1991 7th September 2016 01:25 AM

Think some parts of this thread have gotten a little out of hand... :facepalm: :lol:

Yes it's OBVIOUSLY considered as a "cheap" recorder (although some may choose to call it "good value" rather than cheap), but cheap does not automatically signify bad quality. Not everyone can afford a Sound Devices quality recorder, especially hobbyists like myself.

The best portable recorder is the one you have with you. peachh

Rolo 46 7th September 2016 09:58 AM

The true test of any bit of kit is can you operate it in the dark of a rainy night
That sorts the men from the boys

connloyalist 7th September 2016 11:28 AM

I have been following this discussion with some trepidation. I think I understand where both sides are coming from.

Without re-igniting the mud slinging, might I summarize as follows:
- The affordable (less than ± $1500), high volume consumer oriented field recorders don't offer sufficient / decent sound quality (and usability) for the experienced professional.

- The field recorders that do offer sufficient / decent sound quality are too expensive for the average amateur (more than ± $2500; sometimes significantly).

I am with Voltronic: I would like to see a properly conducted test between for example a Zoom F4 or F8 and a SD744, SD788, Nagra VI or similar.

Regards, Christine

studer58 7th September 2016 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connloyalist (Post 12120133)
I am with Voltronic: I would like to see a properly conducted test between for example a Zoom F4 or F8 and a SD744, SD788, Nagra VI or similar.

Regards, Christine

Hear, hear....let the machines do the talking, rather than the SD, Nagra and Stellavox acolytes and pedants around here.

jimjazzdad 7th September 2016 02:36 PM

Unfortunately we all drink the kool-aid, albeit different flavours. If I own a Nagra / SD, etc. it is because I believe in the technical, usable, consistent advantages of owning pro level gear. If I own a Zoom / Tascam / Fostex, etc. it is because I believe I can get 'good enough' results at the price point I can afford. There is a small middle ground where 'Corinthian' amateurs may be willing to spend more to attempt to get 'professional realm' results, but generally "never the twain shall meet". As one post above observed, the pros will get better results with my amateur-grade gear than I would with their pro-level gear. Its still more about technique although one tip might be to use the best possible gear ONE CAN AFFORD. And therein is the difference - pros buy good tools; its part of being professional.

But I would still like to hear a ZOOM-Nagra shootout with high quality mics...hidz

MichaelPatrick 7th September 2016 03:10 PM

Everyone with a smartphone is a photographer. Everyone with a digital recorder is an audio engineer.

If you push those buttons frequently you are accomplished.

If you post your stuff on fakebook you are distinguished. gooof

2manyrocks 7th September 2016 03:14 PM

Think about those marketing videos from various retailers we have seen in the past. They have ready access to directly compare recorders at both ends of the spectrum, but don't. My suspicion is it better marketing to put up a sales video telling us all the great features in the new recorder and the exciting new price! Preorder today!

But how does it really sound? You have to buy it to find out.

leddy 7th September 2016 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by studer58 (Post 12120359)
Hear, hear....let the machines do the talking, rather than the SD, Nagra and Stellavox acolytes and pedants around here.

There are comparisons out there.
http://youtu.be/PM6VOEYpm4g

I'm not arguing that the Zoom products aren't almost as good (though I can clearly hear differences in this comparison in the sibilants). I am bothered by the business model employed and choose not to support it.

I can't afford sound devices or Nagra products either for the most part. For field recorders I chose Roland R44's. Affordable, and made by a company that is more innovative rather than producing knock offs. That's all I'm saying.

rboy 7th September 2016 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2manyrocks (Post 12119440)
The last post in the F8 thread was 4-5 months ago. If the F8 caught on around here, I must have missed it.

Well, don't forget that only gives info based on the posts of GS users who like to post. Not making a statement about the F8, but the fact that it's been months since the thread has been added to needs the context of what forum posting is in one forum is.

rboy 7th September 2016 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzGizmo (Post 12119308)
While I have to agree about Chinese made.... Zoom recorders are Japanese made, the same country that brings you Sanken microphones, Canare cable, Nikon and Cannon lenses & cameras, Sony and Panasonic broadcast systems.

I would add that the Zoom H6 and H5 have been out for a long time and have proven to be well worth it for those who want what they offer. Not every remote gig has an orchestra or even music, and most shoots are not for a movie theater experience. I've used both and wouldn't describe them as bad sounding pres for what the market is. I doubt that the F4, supposedly having the better Zoom pres, sounds bad enough to dismiss it outright for its intended use for $650.

The previously mentioned $6,850 788T-SD sounds fantastic. But how does the F4 dumb down the user more than the 788T? If I owned both I would surely welcome the opportunity to leave the SD home when the client just needed an F4.

If I held my nose and got depressed at recordings I've made on Zoom portables it would be one thing, but that hasn't been the case.

surflounge 7th September 2016 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connloyalist (Post 12120133)
I am with Voltronic: I would like to see a properly conducted test between for example a Zoom F4 or F8 and a SD744, SD788, Nagra VI or similar.

In the test also include the $400 TASCAM DR-100mkIII vs Nagra 7

PJWeitzner 7th September 2016 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surflounge (Post 12121353)
In the test also include the $400 TASCAM DR-100mkIII

With a cellist like that, you may as well use a wire recorder. (Check out the link above)

rowmat 7th September 2016 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick (Post 12120488)
Everyone with a smartphone is a photographer. Everyone with a digital recorder is an audio engineer.

If you push those buttons frequently you are accomplished.

If you post your stuff on fakebook you are distinguished. gooof

Unfortunately you are correct but it's only going to get worse...

Everyone with a smartphone is a photographer
Everyone with a smartphone will be an audio engineer
Everyone with a smartphone will be a cinematographer

Actually the last two are now past tense as even feature films are now being shot on phones along with the audio!

While the following is not about field audio recording persay it highlights the dumbing down of the masses through technology that requires no commonsense to operate.
DISCLAIMER: I own a Sound Devices 633 ;)

I have heard of people (women) getting friends to exclusively shoot their wedding photos because... "Sally has the latest iPhone and "it" takes nice photos."

Vertical videos shot on phones are now so prevalent that the average viewer no longer bats an eyelid.

A while back a friend's partner was shooting a video of their child playing in the garden. She was holding the phone vertically.

When I asked why she was shooting video in portrait mode instead of landscape mode she had no idea I was talking about.

So I asked her when she watches a movie on TV or at the movie theatre is the movie vertical or horizontal? She still looked at me as though I was nuts.

She said "But this is a phone"

I said... "but you don't have to shoot the video vertically.
Just turn it 90 degrees and shoot in landscape mode and it will look more like a movie."

She said... "but you can't do that because the movies will turn out sideways."
(She of course is still holding the phone vertically to watch it)

I said... "hold your phone width-wise (in landscape) to watch it.

She said... "but the Samsung wording (logo) on the front of the phone will be sidewise"

I said... "What's that got to do with anything?"

She said... "If the Samsung logo is sideways it means I'm holding the phone sideways and you shouldn't do that because everything will come out sideways" :facepalm:

At that point I gave up and will NEVER have a discussion like this ever again as I'm sure they are already building new movie theatres with portrait mode screens for morons who don't like "sideways" movies! shiee

surflounge 7th September 2016 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowmat (Post 12121464)
Unfortunately you are correct but it's only going to get worse...

"if civilzation is a sinking ship, don't flounder in the wreckage, at least save yourself and swim to shore"

rowmat 7th September 2016 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surflounge (Post 12121470)
"if civilzation is a sinking ship, don't flounder in the wreckage, at least save yourself and swim to shore"

Better hope my Sound Devices makes a better life preserver than a Zoom! ;)

Johnmack 8th September 2016 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowmat (Post 12121506)
Better hope my Sound Devices makes a better life preserver than a Zoom! ;)

The SD weighs more, so it will drag you down faster. hidz

IronFilm 8th September 2016 01:24 AM

Little known fun fact: the Zoom F4 can also record to Blu-ray disks as well as SD cards! ;-)

As the new Zoom F4 is "#1 New Release in Blu-ray Recorders" on Amazon, that is a new feature we didn't hear about from Zoom​... that it can record not just to SD cards but to Blu-rays as well! ;-) ha

That isn't even the oddest thing about this Amazon listing, it indicates the RRP is $799 and won't ship until November 30th! :-o

Yet Zoom has stated pricing of $650 and shipping in October ( B&H Photo Video Pro Audio​ has expected availability of October 11th), thus I'm guessing that is two more things Amazon got wrong.

https://www.amazon.com/Zoom-F4-Input...dp/B01LOR91FC/

philper 8th September 2016 02:37 AM

I think recording to bluray is a negative, not a plus. I worked through the time in which we recorded field audio to DVD-RAM etc, rife with media issues, powering problems, gyro/motion-while-recording issues and interference sent back up the line from the disk drive to the recorder. BluRay is even more densely tracked than DVD, so the media for recording multitrack in real time will have to be very clean and perfect. A big No Thanks.

TMetzinger 8th September 2016 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philper (Post 12121814)
I think recording to bluray is a negative, not a plus. I worked through the time in which we recorded field audio to DVD-RAM etc, rife with media issues, powering problems, gyro/motion-while-recording issues and interference sent back up the line from the disk drive to the recorder. BluRay is even more densely tracked than DVD, so the media for recording multitrack in real time will have to be very clean and perfect. A big No Thanks.

I think you missed the sarcasm in the previous post, though I remember back when recordable optical media was new and people tried to record directly to it (to their sorrow).

I suspect that the unit doesn't record to bluray, it's just Amazon getting some product descriptions messed up, or maybe the Amazon writer was in Colorado getting a Rocky Mountain High.

IronFilm 8th September 2016 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMetzinger (Post 12121910)
I think you missed the sarcasm in the previous post, though I remember back when recordable optical media was new and people tried to record directly to it (to their sorrow).

Not sarcasm! :-o Just joking around! :-P

cyjanopan 8th September 2016 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plush (Post 12118164)
Nope.
The unit itself does a disservice to music and makes the user lazy.
It is inherently evil and is part of the dumbing down of any user who chooses it.

It dumbs down the recording process.

Let's get back to real recording gear discussions instead of lauding ********M junque toys. What a joke.

I am Plush--hear me roar.

You are Plush - hear you moan.

Yannick 8th September 2016 09:18 AM

I really do not like these cheap generalizations about cheap Chinese made gear (leaving aside if the Zoom products are really made in Japan...)

Maybe across the ocean it is harder to wake up to a new world (newer than yours), but our guess here in the EU is that that happened at least a decade (or two) ago.

The only generalization should be if the company skips on quality and Q.C. - wherever it is built - you will have trouble.

As far as the F4 and F8 goes, I am sure many here never tested it. Me neither, but at least I am willing to accept it could perform better than a Mackie 1204VLZ plus Tascam DA-30 - which I started with decades ago. Plus some MKH mics.

At least, I still do like some of those early recordings. What is someone preventing from starting off with a F8 and some good mics ? I am sure a talented engineer could make recordings that are better than 90% of the commercial classical so-called recordings out there.

The only way would be to do a proper test (too many ENG and photographer reviews of the F8 out there).

I am placing my bets it is more than half decent - but I would be surprised if the F8 can power 8x MKH80 mics ... ?

Concerning lazyness due to technology: I do not agree here either. Anyone starting off with a F8 and good mics clearly has to a. at least know what they are doing and b. learn a lot about proper mic placement really quickly.
The rich "dad" buying a Hapi plus powerful laptop plus HD800 plus DAW with expensive plugins is IMHO much more lazy. But at least this dad would be using "proper" equipment.

As a side note: I consider a lot of vintage gear to be "broken". I could name several recordings made in top-notch classical studios with vintage gear that clearly have >20%THD. wworried
I would rather redo those sessions with some Royer and Rode mics into a F8.
I am 100% sure who would win.

David Spearritt 8th September 2016 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannick (Post 12122193)
I would rather redo those sessions with some Royer and Rode mics into a F8. I am 100% sure who would win.

Not if the display blanks out partially or fully, the switches stop working, the PSU fries, or or the disk writing gets intermittent glitches.
http://www.sam-mallery.com/2015/11/s...ield-recorder/
http://www.learnlightandsound.com/bl...or-enthusiasts

Samc 8th September 2016 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick (Post 12120488)
Everyone with a smartphone is a photographer. Everyone with a digital recorder is an audio engineer.

If you push those buttons frequently you are accomplished.

If you post your stuff on fakebook you are distinguished. gooof

This is really where my concern lies...the people who are going to buy a box like this and come back thinking they're expert recordists, like all the people who now own a Behringer X32 who suddenly think they're expert mixers. Owning the gear as a cheap, convenient substitute is one thing, but it will quickly graduate to "good enough" and eventually to "as good as" in short order out of ignorance and a lack of experience.

Everybody with an X32, couple of loudspeakers on sticks with very limited knowledge and experience claim they own a PA/production company and are live sound engineers, just like everybody who owns a Pro Tools rig and a couple of mics claim they are studio owners and sound engineers.

As far as the box itself is concerned I do not need a 'test' or consensus to decide if it will be useful for me or not. I can listen to, and use the damn thing and decide all this for myself...it either works or not for my needs or not. Stop with these stupid tests already, if someone can't decide what tools they need without a consensus they obviously don't have enough knowledge and experience to be buying the gear in the first place.

connloyalist 8th September 2016 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronFilm (Post 12121714)
Yet Zoom has stated pricing of $650 and shipping in October ( B&H Photo Video Pro Audio​ has expected availability of October 11th), thus I'm guessing that is two more things Amazon got wrong.

Around here in Europe "available in October" probably means more like early next year. At least that is how it was with the F8. Actual on the shelf available a few months later.

Advantage is that it will be reviewed and tested in the field and reported upon here on GS before it can be purchased where I live.

Regards, Christine