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Live - better suited to live than studio work?
Old 25th December 2016
  #1
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Live - better suited to live than studio work?

This may come like a shock to Ableton users who purchased it due to bandwagon effect. They got Ableton without knowing what Ableton's primarily focus is. Ok let me throw more light on this,Ableton is not a Daw for studio work,Its a live performance tool with some additional arrangement features and not the otherway round eg,A phone is a communication device with some additional camcoder features.It isn't a camcoder but it has some simple basic camcoder features which are no match for an actual specialized cam. Ableton likewise is a Live performance tool with some simple extra basic arrangement view features While Daws like Logic or Cubase etc are primarily Linear arrangement daws but with some extra basic performance tools.

Its not that Ableton cannot be used to make music in a linear way but that the developer's attention isn't on the arrangement view but on the session view and the push. Read the Ableton release notes all the way from the first release till now and see,The updates are for push and session view.If there are any improvements or features added to the arrangement view they must about only 6 ever since the very first release of Ableton till now.please go to the website and read the release notes for yourself.

When choosing a Daw you need to read the release notes/change logs to know the direction the developers are taking otherwise you may wait for features that are never going to be implemented. You should also find out the time lag between the updates and releases and how many improvements each release or update brings to determine how fast or slow the Daw is developing Eg Reaper is a young daw but if has more features than some daws that are much older than it because its Rate of development is too fast,There is a always an update in just week.

My Reason for writting this is that Today a friend of mine who purchased Live 9 from me a month ago asked if he could make a swap and get Studio one instead.He kept telling me of how Ableton lacked this editting feature and that and that it was a pain to edit audio so he wanted to swap it for studio one. I told him it wasn't possible and he's got to deal with his miss-guided decisions. He spent more money on something he didn't need in studio yet what he actually needed was even cheaper
Old 25th December 2016
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nenova ➑️
This may come like a shock to Ableton users who purchased it due to bandwagon effect. They got Ableton without knowing what Ableton's primarily focus is. Ok let me throw more light on this,Ableton is not a Daw for studio work,Its a live performance tool with some additional arrangement features and not the otherway round…
I call BS on this. DAW means "Digital Audio Workstation" and that's it. Live is dealing with Digital Audio, is a focused "workstation" for that and that's enough. There are no more specific requirements for fulfilling the DAW label. I have no issues making finished tracks fit for release (though mastering is done elsewhere, it's very possible) with it and this is not even a requisite for a DAW anyway.

Even if Live has a unique performance slant, its mismanagement of resources makes it not ideal for Live performances currently. That said, I don't see myself using anything else for live performances, except maybe hardware. As long as I keep softsynths to a minimum, and use external hardware instead, it's a great performance tool.

Anyway, what you are suggesting is both misguiding and incomplete. Live is a DAW whether you think so or not.
Old 25th December 2016
  #3
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
I love using Ableton Live 9 for creating song ideas but the lack of audio editing and comping features is a total joke. I emailed support awhile back to see if Ableton has any intention of changing that anytime soon and the worst part about it is they think it already has those features. They said it has had comping features since Live 1, where you manually have to cut up one long audio file and then create a bunch of dummy audio tracks and arrange the cropped audio files manually. Then create another audio track to drag takes over for the master comp. A total pain in the ass, especially when you already have stuff laid out in arrangement view....
Old 25th December 2016
  #4
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Advance Notus

It sure works well for composing linear midi
step input pieces that are really involved and
supposed to sound like Yes though.
But I get your point. I think I'm the only
person on the entire planet who uses
Ableton to write really long involved
progressive rock songs with midi tracks.
I can't imagine why anyone else would want to.
I'm being a little sarcastic; really I find the work
flow to be absolutely user friendly, and composing
and mixing at the same time to be a snap.
I compose in arrangement and mix in session.
Cause I can dump effects on every track,
I never have to use aux sends. I'm sure
every DAW can do this, but the engine in
Ableton is so well laid out, just the two screens.
And there's really nothing you can't actually
mix in arrangement, if you want to, it's just
easier in session.

https://soundcloud.com/the-army-we-have/advance-notus
Old 25th December 2016 | Show parent
  #5
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B ➑️
I call BS on this. DAW means "Digital Audio Workstation" and that's it. Live is dealing with Digital Audio, is a focused "workstation" for that and that's enough. There are no more specific requirements for fulfilling the DAW label. I have no issues making finished tracks fit for release (though mastering is done elsewhere, it's very possible) with it and this is not even a requisite for a DAW anyway.

Even if Live has a unique performance slant, its mismanagement of resources makes it not ideal for Live performances currently. That said, I don't see myself using anything else for live performances, except maybe hardware. As long as I keep softsynths to a minimum, and use external hardware instead, it's a great performance tool.

Anyway, what you are suggesting is both misguiding and incomplete. Live is a DAW whether you think so or not.
ABLETON IS NO DAW FOR STUDIO WORK. didn't you see that "throw more light" in my post? Ableton for studio work!!!!! that's a BIG joke,Even mixcraft has more editting features than Ableton. For live performance and looping around already made samples its ok But to literally say that Ableton is an Audio editor is a joke.It even cant lock clips or even hightlight two clips that are not inline with eachother,It even has no volume handles on audio or even midi clips.If to you this is your definition of an Audio editor then your a joke as well. That's clearly not an Audio Editor AT ALL. dont defend the daw merely because your a user.Am also a user but Lets be Honest.

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 14th June 2017 at 04:41 AM..
Old 25th December 2016
  #6
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
And Yes Yes yes we all know its got racks and lots of racks and racks everywhere But that's not what am talking about.Am talking about Editting features. Every daw in the world beats Ableton at ediiting;Cubase,Pro tools,Sonar,Logic,Reaper,Studio one Bitwig,Samplitude,Pyramix,Sonoma,Acid pro,Ardour,Mixbus etc etc.Just randomly think of any daw,Ableton is taking the last place as the daw with the least editting features in the world and the first place as the daw with most live performance features.
Old 25th December 2016
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Kimotei's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Silly half assed rant.

Chose the car that fits your flow. Live is a tight rally car. Its clearly not made for comfort.

I personally cant stand the slow ass cubase truck.

10 tears pro use of cubase here, followed by 10 years of pro ableton use. For my driving style and workflow nothing comes close.
Old 25th December 2016
  #8
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Digital? Check!
Audio? Check!
Workstation? Check!

It's a DAW!

Case closed.


Alistair
Old 25th December 2016 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimotei ➑️
Silly half assed rant.

Chose the car that fits your flow. Live is a tight rally car. Its clearly not made for comfort.

I personally cant stand the slow ass cubase truck.

10 tears pro use of cubase here, followed by 10 years of pro ableton use. For my driving style and workflow nothing comes close.

I'm not a big fan of Ableton live. I much prefer Cubase, but anyone saying that Live isn't a DAW hasn't had enough Christmas champagne!


Alistair
Old 25th December 2016
  #10
Lives for gear
 
MoBeach's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Reaper 64 does everything I want it to, Sonar before that, but my first one was Cubase Live 6 and I didn't care for it. Reaper gives me constant free updates.
Old 26th December 2016 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nenova ➑️
ABLETON IS NO DAW FOR STUDIO WORK. didn't you see that "throw more light" in my post? Ableton for studio work!!!!! that's a BIG joke,Even mixcraft has more editting features than Ableton. For live performance and looping around already made samples its ok But to literally say that Ableton is an Audio editor is a joke.It even cant lock clips or even hightlight two clips that are not inline with eachother,It even has no volume handles on audio or even midi clips.If to you this is your definition of an Audio editor then your a joke as well. That's clearly not an Audio Editor AT ALL. dont defend the daw merely because your a user.Am also a user but Lets be Honest.
The concept of a "DAW" does not, I repeat not, equal an "audio editor". You're simply mistaken and have been doing this for too short time to have a proper perspective. That's all there is to it.

That other DAWs, that we both may respect, may have better features in the audio editing department still does not mean Ableton Live is not a DAW. To claim this is like splitting hairs over something no-one that knows what they're doing really agrees with. Well, I'm sure someone does think that, but they're a tiny, tiny minority. Warp is audio editing, whether you think so or not and whether you like how it works or not.

That said, for studio recordings of real bands I'm far from certain I'd choose Live for that. But this does not in any way indicate that Live is not a DAW.

Of course, you can think what you want about what Live is or isn't, your opinion is yours, but I think your arguments are very weak.

Last edited by Mikael B; 26th December 2016 at 02:34 AM..
Old 26th December 2016
  #12
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
MY POINT IS; Ableton sucks at editting.It sucks soooo bad at editting.so so bad actually. Its very limited and so basic at editting. just randomly think of a daw in the world that Ableton has better editting features than. LOL. Ableton is the worst in entire world. Cubase,Pro tools,Reaper,Logic,Studio one,Sequoia/samplitude,Pyramix,sonoma,Bitwig,Mixbus,Mixcraft,Sony acid,Digital performer,etc etc. Point out any daw that ableton beats at Editting!!!!! THERE IS NONE. Ableton is an embarrasement in studio. Am Talking about in-door Studio work so dont tell me about how it can Dj and session view staff.
Old 26th December 2016 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nenova ➑️
MY POINT IS; Ableton sucks at editting.It sucks soooo bad at editting.so so bad actually. Its very limited and so basic at editting. just randomly think of a daw in the world that Ableton has better editting features than. LOL. Ableton is the worst in entire world. Cubase,Pro tools,Reaper,Logic,Studio one,Sequoia/samplitude,Pyramix,sonoma,Bitwig,Mixbus,Mixcraft,Sony acid,Digital performer,etc etc. Point out any daw that ableton beats at Editting!!!!! THERE IS NONE. Ableton is an embarrasement in studio. Am Talking about in-door Studio work so dont tell me about how it can Dj and session view staff.

ZZZZZ


Ah, OK. I'm not saying your points are invalid. I haven't investigated those DAWs as I'm busy making music in a studio with a DAW called Ableton Live.

Nothing what you have argued supports your claim that is the title of this discussion. Your points on Live may be correct or not, but all it boils down to is that it is a DAW that doesn't suit you. So don't use it. Problem solved.
Old 26th December 2016
  #14
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I have a client who uses this program strictly for audio editing and he manages well with it. I personally could not, as there are not enough facilities for Audio Editing, for my preferences -- but it is not like you can't audio edit inside it.
Old 26th December 2016
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Analogue Mastering's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Jezus, you guys are to binary..... the guy really tries to say that LIVE is more a performance daw than a production/studio daw
Of course you can make tracks with it, but it's forte is performance, not editting.
Old 26th December 2016
  #16
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
With respect to your post, I went and watched a video on youtube called comping with reaper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpnzjy8mcIw

I don't really see much of a difference between what he does and what I would do in Ableton.

If you could clearly list the things you can't do in Ableton, I would appreciate it. Ableton can splice, fade and warp clips to your heart's content. I am not sure what other editing features one would need. (Or features one couldn't easily compensate for.)

That and the fact that max 4 live creates hundreds of useful tools (even for rockers like me), and midiscripts empower 3rd party developers like Native Kontrol and Remotify. Currently, I can work in Ableton without ever looking down at keyboard, one hand on mouse, one hand on Midi Figher Twister and I'm on the go.

Racks matter. Scripts matter. Max 4 live matters.

I am not knocking you ... I am genuinely curious.
Old 26th December 2016 | Show parent
  #17
Deleted fa7843c
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydraka ➑️
I love using Ableton Live 9 for creating song ideas but the lack of audio editing and comping features is a total joke. I emailed support awhile back to see if Ableton has any intention of changing that anytime soon and the worst part about it is they think it already has those features. They said it has had comping features since Live 1, where you manually have to cut up one long audio file and then create a bunch of dummy audio tracks and arrange the cropped audio files manually. Then create another audio track to drag takes over for the master comp. A total pain in the ass, especially when you already have stuff laid out in arrangement view....
Actually, isn't audio editing one of its strong suits? The MIDI side, and routing options, is really where it might not be as powerful as say PT or any of the others, but for Audio Work, WARPing, editing, etc. it's pretty good.

Do you mean sample rate type work? Deeper stuff like in RX5 or Audition?
Old 26th December 2016
  #18
m03
Gear Maniac
 
m03's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nenova ➑️
My Reason for writting this is that Today a friend of mine who purchased from me a month ago asked if he could make a swap and get Studio one instead.He kept telling me of how Ableton lacked this editting feature and that and that it was a pain to edit audio so he wanted to swap it for studio one.
Can you be more specific as to which editing features you believe that Live lacks, and which editing shortcoming made editing audio a pain?
Old 26th December 2016
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Hardtoe's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I've been using live since V3 for remixing and production work and have used live versions 7,8 & 9 (as new versions became available) for running a professional studio since 2007.

I record, edit, comp, mix and master full band tracking sessions inside live 9 with no major issues - some editing features could be a little more streamlined for sure, but I can work very fast with all my years of experience.

If you don't dig the flow that's fine, but don't blame the tool for your own lack of skills to use the program.

Old 26th December 2016
  #20
Gear Head
 
mclismoscow's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
If you're searching a complete Ableton-head, who makes 100% ITB production from songwriting and beatmaking to mastering and post-production (movies and ads) in Live, count me in! Since 2008
Old 26th December 2016
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Analogue Mastering's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You guys are right, there is not much you can't do, my workflow is more Cubase, it's preference
Ableton didn't gell with me, but that's me, not ableton
Old 26th December 2016
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
OMG! This news is shocking.. Are you sure?
Old 29th December 2016 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering ➑️
Jezus, you guys are to binary..... the guy really tries to say that LIVE is more a performance daw than a production/studio daw
Not at all. He started out claiming that Ableton Live is not a DAW. Not a specific type of DAW. If that isn't binary I don't know what is.

My suggestion is more open ended. I suggest Live is what it is, a DAW with a somewhat different approach. There are two major sides to Live, the Session and Arrangement modes.

You can argue that what most resembles some other DAWs, Arrangement mode, leaves a lot to be desired. Fact remains though, it's totally viable using just Arrangement mode and not miss anything from other DAWs. That Live isn't like other DAWs is a good thing and why I use it. I don't need anything else for mixdowns. To think that you naturally must miss anything is being behind on the current state of Live. Old stale information does not apply. 9.2 changed everything. 9.5 improved this.

There are a few things DAWs like Cubase do more effectively in the mixer section, but the fact is that after being a Logic user for many years I haven't found much signal paths I cannot do in Live. The first step is to stop fighting the application and accept it for what it is. Live is more versatile than what limited knowledge suggests. Look further.
Old 29th December 2016 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering ➑️
You guys are right, there is not much you can't do, my workflow is more Cubase, it's preference
Ableton didn't gell with me, but that's me, not ableton
There's nothing wrong with the possibilities in Cubase, Logic and so on. I found myself I finish more songs in Live (to mixdown) than in any other DAW I've used. That's why I think you can do everything with it. Which doesn't mean it's for everyone.
Old 29th December 2016
  #25
Lives for gear
 
UltimateOutsider's Avatar
Guys. OP knows Live is a DAW. He just chose an (apparently effective) attention-grabbing headline to make his case that Live's forte is performance and Session view. I would agree that Session view is Ableton's focus as a company, and it's not something that fits the way I work at all.

I've completed several full-length tracks entirely in Live's piano-roll Arrangement view. It's fine. I went back to Cubase for its VST3 support and its massively more extensive MIDI and audio editing/transformation capabilities.
Old 29th December 2016
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
iamgod's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I understand what the OP is trying to convey....

But he's wrong. Live is a DAW with its own controller and is great for use in studio sessions and for using in Live performances also... Its as simple as that.

Now with that said I still use a Logic or sometimes Reason to do my mix downs because I think the arraignment view still lack a couple of features.

But I can edit audio or Midi just like I can in any other DAW. Anyone who has knowledge of Ableton Live would know this.

I think the OP is based off of assumptions and not actual knowledge of the program.
Old 29th December 2016
  #27
I have Ableton and it's a definitely a DAW.

Some people!
Old 30th December 2016 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgod ➑️
I think the OP is based off of assumptions and not actual knowledge of the program.
Actually this is quite common with people not having followed developments the last year or so (since 9.2).
There are also a portion of producers that never learn any DAW properly that are not that seldom falsely assuming you can't do certain things they never saw a solution for, or wasn't in the manual or whatever. I don't see this being the case here though.

Last edited by Mikael B; 2nd January 2017 at 03:18 AM..
Old 27th January 2017
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nenova ➑️
A phone is a communication device with some additional camcoder features.It isn't a camcoder but it has some simple basic camcoder features which are no match for an actual specialized cam.
Completely agree for the most part but at the end of the day the phone has overtaken the camcorder and DSLR (at least on a consumer level) quite handily. While Ableton isn't always the right tool for studio work imo, people will shoehorn it into that because they either have nothing else or prefer the workflow.

I personally can't stand the Ableton's arrange view, it's awful I hate the way zoom works in Ableton, it's extremely tedious and slow imo, and I hate that it doesn't have good audio features, but some folks swear that it has great audio features.

There are features that are amazing like Racks, and how easy it is to route things in the app.

Anyway if you like Ableton's session view and workflow but want potentially better audio and arrange view then Bitwig is a good alternative. It's still very young and it doesn't quite have all the features yet but even now it's audio features and arrange view are better than Ableton's.
Old 27th January 2017
  #30
Gear Addict
 
Ben Dial's Avatar
Here's something I made completely in Ableton... too bad it's terrible at editing. /sarc/

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zwz4ehdmgr...0Mix2.mp3?dl=0
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